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[Metchosin/Beecher Bay FN] Spirit Bay | Mixed-use | Approved


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#41 Sparky

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:11 AM

^^^^ Normally when we see a first post by a member Kim pirate, we welcome them to the forum.... but I see that you have been a member for almost two years.

The Spirit Bay thread will no doubt garner a lot of interest due to it's unique nature. I am sure there will be many questions by our members as this project progresses.

Welcome to the discussion.

#42 Kim pirate

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:20 AM

Kim Pirate - In response to: A few questions:

1- The title is held in the Federal Land Titles office and it is CMHC insured and we have commitments from 2 national and one Credit Union to provide funding and mortgages
2 - I'm not sure where you got "high density" or "clear-cut" from but neither are true. Have you been to the site of the development recently? The lands have been occupied by improperly serviced lots for decades and we are in the process of cleaning up a tremendous mess. We are sorting all the debris for recycling and are servicing the lands properly for a mixed-use development that will provide a real opportunity for the future of the Scianew First Nations who are 51% owners of the development company (while retaining underlying ownership). Not high density. There will eventually be a village Center with live-above-the-shop style housing and some waterfront townhomes all in later phases.
3 - There will be tertiary level sewage treatment that will be developed after the first phase. In the interim sewage will be pumped to a central lift station where it will be collected and treated the same way I suspect your sewage is.
4- The project will connect to existing Hydro and water although fire services will be provided from the Band's own reservoir. The industrial lands will be home to a waste-to-energy facility (all organic wastes will be composted) to provide energy in later phases. There is no plan for desalination.


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1 - Will you please name the financial Institutions that you refer to ?
2 - " " tell in exact figures what the housing density is ?
3 - The lands are highly covered by forest. How do you build 800 units without clear cutting this forest ?

#43 Kim pirate

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:23 AM

^^^^ Normally when we see a first post by a member Kim pirate, we welcome them to the forum.... but I see that you have been a member for almost two years.

The Spirit Bay thread will no doubt garner a lot of interest due to it's unique nature. I am sure there will be many questions by our members as this project progresses.

Welcome to the discussion.

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Thank you ( Kim Pirate )

#44 Kim pirate

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:38 AM

Kim Pirate - surprise me. Tell me what you know that indicates to you that I need inform myself. Are you familiar with First Nations lands governed under the Land Code as opposed to the Indian Act?
I have been wrong before and if you can provide some actual facts I would be delighted to correct them.

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As I said....inform yourself. I'm not an authority.
The best and safest way is to do it at the sources ( Authorities ) to avoid misrepresentation. Does the project holds a Prospectus issued by The Real Estate Council or...is it exempted as Native Lands with following uncertainty of execution ?..:whyme:

#45 darlenet8

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:53 AM

I have informed myself as have our lawyers. We are very clear on the status of the title, the 99 year lease and the financial/lending implications. thank you.
Spirit Bay will issue an Information Statement which will follow, in most respects, a Disclosure Statement. We have been advised by the Superintendent of Real Estate that due to the fact they have no jurisdiction over First Nations lands, they will not review a disclosure statement. Our Information Statement will be reviewed by Buyers lawyers who will in turn, advise prospective buyers of all the legal ramifications.

#46 darlenet8

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 10:02 AM

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1 - Will you please name the financial Institutions that you refer to ?
2 - " " tell in exact figures what the housing density is ?
3 - The lands are highly covered by forest. How do you build 800 units without clear cutting this forest ?

1 - Will you please name the financial Institutions that you refer to? No. When the decision about which financial institution will be undertaking financing and/or mortgage provision we will release the information.
2 - Density averages are meaningless. This is a mixed use development with densities varying widely. There will be large to small lot single family housing in some areas, some others will lend themselves to townhomes and areas that are already cleared will lend themselves to a Town Center.
3 - We recognize trees as a natural amenity which add value to the properties - not something to clear and be rid of. The lands are very mixed and not all highly covered. If you go to the site you will see the crew at work right now clearing the substantial mess left behind and taking great care to move around the established trees. All significant trees are being tagged - some for retention while other that may be unhealthy or precarious will be removed. Building while retaining trees is more difficult but not impossible.

#47 Mike K.

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 10:02 AM

Thanks for your feedback, darlenet8.

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#48 darlenet8

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 11:42 AM

Just to jump in and clarify a few points referenced in the preceeding posts:
Location - you got it. It is essentially the lands that wrap around Beecher (or Becher depending on your map) Bay and to the west.

Mobile home folks kicked out to make way for this development - This was a campground with a 30 day tenancy in place. Granted, some campers pre-paid up to a year in advance (they were refunded) but these people in no way had long-term leases. Some had built rather elaborate homes (and some were so disgusting you can't imagine) but all were on a 30 day rental period. Their developments were not properly serviced for residential use and it has left a horrible mess. The Scianew First Nations who are 51% partners in the development had tough decisions to make for the well-being of their members and for the well-being of the land. It was tough to evict these people but the Scianew hired housing professionals who found housing for all the "hardship" (physical, mental and financial) cases on the property.

The security of ownership - we've all read the headlines of problems that have occurred in the past with people leasing First Nations land. I can point to the differences in virtually every situation and point to many more success stories (not real headline grabbers). Westbank is but one, google can hand you many more. That titles at Spirit Bay are registered in the Federal Land Titles office, come with Title Insurance and are CMHC insured.

Depreciating Asset - the asset is valued at 100% for 50 years and drops 10% every 10 years after that. The questions buyers need to ask themselves is what they value more, a lifestyle that may not be available to them elsewhere (hard for folks to comment until more of the Spirit Bay story unfolds) today, or an appreciating asset elsewhere? And how many of us live in our great-parents homes? It is an entirely individual kind of decision.

In the case of Spirit bay, 99 year leases are prepaid as is the Head Lease.

We think Silver Spray is beautiful and it has different characteristics in location, land, housing and community design.

It would be helpful to have a legal or mortgage professional versed in First Nations land leases pipe in at some point if any participate in the forum. I don't expect to quell people's concerns but I do believe they are quell-able...

#49 concorde

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 01:43 PM

Just to jump in and clarify a few points referenced in the preceeding posts:
Location - you got it. It is essentially the lands that wrap around Beecher (or Becher depending on your map) Bay and to the west.

Mobile home folks kicked out to make way for this development - This was a campground with a 30 day tenancy in place. Granted, some campers pre-paid up to a year in advance (they were refunded) but these people in no way had long-term leases. Some had built rather elaborate homes (and some were so disgusting you can't imagine) but all were on a 30 day rental period. Their developments were not properly serviced for residential use and it has left a horrible mess. The Scianew First Nations who are 51% partners in the development had tough decisions to make for the well-being of their members and for the well-being of the land. It was tough to evict these people but the Scianew hired housing professionals who found housing for all the "hardship" (physical, mental and financial) cases on the property.

The security of ownership - we've all read the headlines of problems that have occurred in the past with people leasing First Nations land. I can point to the differences in virtually every situation and point to many more success stories (not real headline grabbers). Westbank is but one, google can hand you many more. That titles at Spirit Bay are registered in the Federal Land Titles office, come with Title Insurance and are CMHC insured.

Depreciating Asset - the asset is valued at 100% for 50 years and drops 10% every 10 years after that. The questions buyers need to ask themselves is what they value more, a lifestyle that may not be available to them elsewhere (hard for folks to comment until more of the Spirit Bay story unfolds) today, or an appreciating asset elsewhere? And how many of us live in our great-parents homes? It is an entirely individual kind of decision.

In the case of Spirit bay, 99 year leases are prepaid as is the Head Lease.

We think Silver Spray is beautiful and it has different characteristics in location, land, housing and community design.

It would be helpful to have a legal or mortgage professional versed in First Nations land leases pipe in at some point if any participate in the forum. I don't expect to quell people's concerns but I do believe they are quell-able...


Campground/mobile home park - I guess thats the same thing in your mind. I don't know anyone who camps year round and "pre-paid up to a year in advance". Its a mobile home park, not a campground.

Depreciating asset - my newspaper article indicates values start to fall after 19 years, not 50 as you say. Thats good to know after 19 years later the property I could buy there is worth less than what I paid for. Or I could buy at Silver Spray around the corner for the same price and my property will be worth MORE, probably by at least 20%. Tell me why anyone would want to purchase a depreciating asset when housing prices have consistently long term gone up over the past 50-60 years in Victoria. You are not offering any discounts to buy on leased land where you own nothing but the house it sits on.

As for getting a legal and mortgage professional on board to answer question - you are the developer or developers representative, that is your responsibility to get someone on board

#50 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:09 PM

As for getting a legal and mortgage professional on board to answer question - you are the developer or developers representative, that is your responsibility to get someone on board


I think she's means she'd be happy to have an independant professional, chime in on this page, to give unbiased advice. So you don't have to take the word of an evil developer. :)
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#51 darlenet8

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:56 PM

Campground/mobile home park - I guess thats the same thing in your mind. I don't know anyone who camps year round and "pre-paid up to a year in advance". Its a mobile home park, not a campground.

Depreciating asset - my newspaper article indicates values start to fall after 19 years, not 50 as you say. Thats good to know after 19 years later the property I could buy there is worth less than what I paid for. Or I could buy at Silver Spray around the corner for the same price and my property will be worth MORE, probably by at least 20%. Tell me why anyone would want to purchase a depreciating asset when housing prices have consistently long term gone up over the past 50-60 years in Victoria. You are not offering any discounts to buy on leased land where you own nothing but the house it sits on.

As for getting a legal and mortgage professional on board to answer question - you are the developer or developers representative, that is your responsibility to get someone on board

I have no idea which newspaper article you are referencing when you speak about depreciating assets. A simple google search verifies my information - check Richards Buell Sutton, a legal firm specializing in First Nations Land Leases.

I am delighted to hear that you wish to live at Silver Spray.

#52 darlenet8

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:57 PM

I think she's means she'd be happy to have an independant professional, chime in on this page, to give unbiased advice. So you don't have to take the word of an evil developer. :)

You're absolutely correct. Thanks for clarifying...

#53 patrick venton

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 03:54 PM

kinda like a time share... the appreciation idea is doubtful.... for those who want to live the now... and take a chance .

#54 Bob Fugger

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:06 PM

Can someone explain to me why anyone in their right mind would consider buying into a situation so fraught with peril, relative to the lower risk associated with a similar neighbouring (freehold) development or really any of the many other realty choices one can make in this market? I mean, I get why you would buy a home in the Musqueum (where else are you gonna get to live in Vancouver proper for that price?) - but East Sooke? For serious?!

#55 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:12 PM

Can someone explain to me why anyone in their right mind would consider buying into a situation so fraught with peril


What peril? Either you think it's a good deal, or you don't. I'm not sure there is peril.

but East Sooke? For serious?!


It's not in East Sooke. Remember, we went over that.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#56 Sparky

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:41 PM

The deconstruction is underway.









The phone still works though. Check the comfy seating.



#57 darlenet8

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:32 PM

Can someone explain to me why anyone in their right mind would consider buying into a situation so fraught with peril, relative to the lower risk associated with a similar neighbouring (freehold) development or really any of the many other realty choices one can make in this market? I mean, I get why you would buy a home in the Musqueum (where else are you gonna get to live in Vancouver proper for that price?) - but East Sooke? For serious?!

Bob - the Musqeum situation was quite different. In 1969, the lessors got a 99 year lease payable annually with a rate of $4,000 per year guaranteed for 30 years with the stated intent to then charge market rates from that point forward. When the 30 years came and the Musqueum attempted to charge market rates, all hell broke loose but that was the deal.
In the case of Spirit Bay, the 99 years is entirely pre-paid. With Title Insurance and CMHC insured and banks who are quite comfortable mortgaging properties. The only peril exists in un-related headlines of past years. There are hundreds if not thousands of people living and running businesses on First nations lands without issue.
Spirit Bay wraps around Beecher Bay which is actually Metchosin's neighbourhood.

#58 darlenet8

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:33 PM

The deconstruction is underway.









The phone still works though. Check the comfy seating.

Thanks - like I said, "what a mess" - particularly against such a gorgeous property. We have a crew of 15 working daily to deal with the debris. You should have seen it a couple of weeks ago. We are making steady progress though...

#59 Bingo

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:51 PM

Nice pic Sparky!
It's about time Telus introduced the comfy chair into their phone booths.

Was there any reconditioned cars kicking around?



#60 darlenet8

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:34 PM

No but I can get you a deal on a comfy chair...

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