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[Metchosin/Beecher Bay FN] Spirit Bay | Mixed-use | Approved


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#81 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:06 PM

Is the development surrounded by reserve lands or is there access from public lands?

I'm thinking back to when Predator Ridge was hosting a "skins" game and the natives threatened to blockade the road to the development which ran through their land.


The Pat Bay highway bisects a reserve, do you suggest we expel the natives from one side or the other, or build a new highway around the reserve to save us from the eventual inevitability of a blockade?
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#82 darlenet8

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:56 PM

There is access from public lands.
I am not familiar with the details of the Predator Ridge story. I do know that we have a lease registered in the Federal Land Titles office and this is a unique partnership. We are not just leasing FN lands and developing them, we are Development Partners. Big difference....

#83 concorde

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:58 PM

I get your point Mike, but I don't believe this development will take up the entire Reserve. What about the areas around the development on the Reserve? The strata will have no control over that. My point is no one has cared in the past, so why should they now


The kind of people who would dismantle 10 cars in their yard won't buy there.


My point if you read carefully was to make sure that the natives on the rest of the reserve wouldn't treat the land like they already have. Buyers want to make sure they don't have to drive past houses outside of the development on the reserve with 10 cars piled up in the front yard. So far you are offering no guarantees this won't happen

#84 darlenet8

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 09:53 PM

My point if you read carefully was to make sure that the natives on the rest of the reserve wouldn't treat the land like they already have. Buyers want to make sure they don't have to drive past houses outside of the development on the reserve with 10 cars piled up in the front yard. So far you are offering no guarantees this won't happen

No I don't have any guarantees. I just know we are partners in something they feel very good about and when people feel good about something it tends to have a ripple effect. While I can talk about how the leased lands will be maintained, I'm not in a position to promise how any First Nations maintain the lands they live on.
Buyers buy homes all the time and drive through reserve properties, particularly right here in the Victoria region. Sometimes they lead to some of the most spectacular properties that exist anywhere.

#85 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 09:58 PM

Ya, and you have to drive through Esquimalt to get to Plaskett Place, that's pretty disgusting for those owners to have to traverse every day.
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#86 Bob Fugger

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:00 PM

Buyers buy homes all the time and drive through reserve properties, particularly right here in the Victoria region. Sometimes they lead to some of the most spectacular properties that exist anywhere.


If this is the same reserve I'm thinking of, the Chief's house is particularly spectacular - and I don't just mean relative to the other homes in the neighbourhood.

#87 Mike K.

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:10 PM

The Admirals Walk development in View Royal, is that not on or surrounded by native land?

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#88 darlenet8

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:47 AM

If this is the same reserve I'm thinking of, the Chief's house is particularly spectacular - and I don't just mean relative to the other homes in the neighbourhood.

Chief Russel Chipps lives in a nice home. I think "spectacular" might be a bit of a stretch but it is attractive and well-maintained. He lives on the same street with other Band members.

#89 Bernard

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 09:31 AM

There is no reason to fear or be concerned about buying on reserve lands in BC. There are many successful examples out there, in fact almost all the examples over the last generation have been a success. All the stories of problems relate to old tenures on reserve lands.

The form of land ownership on reserve is quite different than lands in BC under the jurisdiction of the province. Here are the biggest differences:

Who can own the freehold title - only members of the First Nations can.
On reserve the closest equivalent to fee-simple is a CP, a certificate of possession but a CP is actually a stronger interest in the land than fee-simple.
The way interests are registered on the land - BC uses the Torrens Land Registry but reserve lands do not. There are a couple of different registry systems and land management systems that can be in place. In the past the use of some of the old systems have caused problems because of leases were written
You need to be aware of how an on reserve leasehold is different than other forms of land ownership in BC. You need to have a real estate agent and lawyer that are aware of these differences and can explain the full implications to you.
With fee simple land in BC government retains a lot of power over the land which is why municipalities can zone, pass tree bylaws etc... If you have a CP on reserve your rights of what you can do with that land is much less restricted. Park Royal Mall in North Vancouver is a good example. The Squamish First Nation has no say at all over about how the land is used and the mall owners can build anything they like.
First Nations are not allowed to create zoning bylaws or have anything similar to OCPs
There are many examples of very successful real estate developments on reserve land in BC. The 99 year lease term has not been an impediment. In the case of Westbank about 7,000 people live on the reserves that are not members of the First Nation
Residents on reserve lands are represented at the CRD by Mike Hicks, whom they get to vote for, but the CRD has no jurisdiction over the lands
Property interests on reserve owned by non-band members have to pay property taxes. These taxes are either paid to the CRD or the band if the First Nation has taken up property taxation powers
Provincial laws of general application all apply on reserve.

Meanwhile, as to Predator Ridge near Vernon some years back. The Okanagan Indian Band owned all that land at one point but it was taken from them because they successfully used it for ranching and were competing with the ranchers of the North Okanagan. Some of the local ranching magnates got together and managed to get the federal and provincial governments to unilaterly take the land from the OKIB. Years later the band had still not been compensated for the seizure of the land. The Skins game was a great way for the OKIB to get some publicity about their case. They never blockaded but the federal government finally agreed to sit down and talk with them.

Why do you see mobile homes on reserves? It is the easiest housing asset you can get a mortgage for on reserve. For a member of a First Nation to get a mortgage for a house means they need to get a ministerial guarantee for the mortgage. This means the band council has to ask for this on behalf of the person.

The reason you can get a mortgage on a mobile home is that you can remove it. The reason you can get a mortgage for a 99 year leasehold on reserve is because the bank can come in seize the property and sell it.

#90 darlenet8

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 10:05 AM

There is no reason to fear or be concerned about buying on reserve lands in BC. There are many successful examples out there, in fact almost all the examples over the last generation have been a success. All the stories of problems relate to old tenures on reserve lands.

The form of land ownership on reserve is quite different than lands in BC under the jurisdiction of the province. Here are the biggest differences:

Who can own the freehold title - only members of the First Nations can.
On reserve the closest equivalent to fee-simple is a CP, a certificate of possession but a CP is actually a stronger interest in the land than fee-simple.
The way interests are registered on the land - BC uses the Torrens Land Registry but reserve lands do not. There are a couple of different registry systems and land management systems that can be in place. In the past the use of some of the old systems have caused problems because of leases were written
You need to be aware of how an on reserve leasehold is different than other forms of land ownership in BC. You need to have a real estate agent and lawyer that are aware of these differences and can explain the full implications to you.
With fee simple land in BC government retains a lot of power over the land which is why municipalities can zone, pass tree bylaws etc... If you have a CP on reserve your rights of what you can do with that land is much less restricted. Park Royal Mall in North Vancouver is a good example. The Squamish First Nation has no say at all over about how the land is used and the mall owners can build anything they like.
First Nations are not allowed to create zoning bylaws or have anything similar to OCPs
There are many examples of very successful real estate developments on reserve land in BC. The 99 year lease term has not been an impediment. In the case of Westbank about 7,000 people live on the reserves that are not members of the First Nation
Residents on reserve lands are represented at the CRD by Mike Hicks, whom they get to vote for, but the CRD has no jurisdiction over the lands
Property interests on reserve owned by non-band members have to pay property taxes. These taxes are either paid to the CRD or the band if the First Nation has taken up property taxation powers
Provincial laws of general application all apply on reserve.

Meanwhile, as to Predator Ridge near Vernon some years back. The Okanagan Indian Band owned all that land at one point but it was taken from them because they successfully used it for ranching and were competing with the ranchers of the North Okanagan. Some of the local ranching magnates got together and managed to get the federal and provincial governments to unilaterly take the land from the OKIB. Years later the band had still not been compensated for the seizure of the land. The Skins game was a great way for the OKIB to get some publicity about their case. They never blockaded but the federal government finally agreed to sit down and talk with them.

Why do you see mobile homes on reserves? It is the easiest housing asset you can get a mortgage for on reserve. For a member of a First Nation to get a mortgage for a house means they need to get a ministerial guarantee for the mortgage. This means the band council has to ask for this on behalf of the person.

The reason you can get a mortgage on a mobile home is that you can remove it. The reason you can get a mortgage for a 99 year leasehold on reserve is because the bank can come in seize the property and sell it.

Bernard - Thank you for the very informative piece on First Nations ownership. It is a scenario where headline issues do not adequately relay the details that so often lead people to arrive at very different conclusions. If there were a media story for every successful FN land deal we'd be reading them every day.
I have one question: where you mention that FN cannot create zoning by-laws or OCP-style documents? This Band is under The Land Code (vs. the Indian Act) and my understanding is that it does make provisions for them to enact zoning/land use codes? I have not double-checked with our team yet but it has been my understanding.

#91 LJ

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:13 PM

Property interests on reserve owned by non-band members have to pay property taxes. These taxes are either paid to the CRD or the band if the First Nation has taken up property taxation powers


Who sets the mill rate?

Who provides the assessments?
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#92 darlenet8

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 08:10 PM

Who sets the mill rate?

Who provides the assessments?

As a unique, new development we are still resolving some of the taxation issues but here is what has been agreed to thus far or exists as a result of existing legislation:
Taxes will be paid to the Scianew Band not CRD (this structure will be in place by the time the first lots are registered).
Mill rate is set by Band at a warranted 20% discount to surrounding municipalities providing similar services.
The BCAssessment Authority will provide Assessments.

#93 Kim pirate

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 08:13 PM

I'm taken aback by the vitriol expressed by a couple of the commenters on this thread. They are intimating that the developer is unfamiliar with the basics of financing and zoning. They may not be aware that David Butterfield and his associates have a solid track record of successful developments in Victoria (Shoal Point and Harbourside hotel and condos) and in Mexico. He made significant progress with a development proposal for a village concept at Bamberton (subsequently turned down by the regional government). The responses provided by Darlene Tait have been clear and to the point. The commenter sneers with the notion that she "refuses" to provide an average density. It is described as being a mixed use development, with varying lot coverage and building types. They can no more provide an average density than you could provide the average density for Fernwood, or for Sooke. Density is always determined on a site-specific basis.


Attention Barra:
When you mix ice cubes and coke, you may get an average density that varies with the quantity of ice cubes and coke. That's a mixed use drink.
In physical planning, density refers to the relation between the physical occupation and the land area and is expressed in percent.Get informed:wave:
Darlene answers are foggy...to say the least.:confused:

#94 Sparky

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 08:21 PM

Kim pirate

You keep telling people to be informed.

Please tell us about the axe you have to grind.

Is it the trees? Is it the 99 year lease?

My parents bought a 99 year lease at Gordon's Beach in the early 60's

I wish today that they hadn't sold it.

What's your beef?

#95 Kim pirate

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 08:44 PM

Kim pirate

You keep telling people to be informed.

Please tell us about the axe you have to grind.

Is it the trees? Is it the 99 year lease?

My parents bought a 99 year lease at Gordon's Beach in the early 60's

I wish today that they hadn't sold it.

What's your beef?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I would appreciate more clarity...that's all.
But if I'm bothering you ( ? ) I will be out of this forum.:mad:

#96 Sparky

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 08:48 PM

OK.....clarity about what?

#97 darlenet8

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 09:35 PM

Attention Barra:
When you mix ice cubes and coke, you may get an average density that varies with the quantity of ice cubes and coke. That's a mixed use drink.
In physical planning, density refers to the relation between the physical occupation and the land area and is expressed in percent.Get informed:wave:
Darlene answers are foggy...to say the least.:confused:

Kim - When your head is in the freezer and your feet in the fire, on average,you will be warm.
If you were to provide some facts with your questions/allegations it would be helpful ... be the lighthouse - not the fog.

#98 Bob Fugger

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:22 AM

I hate this thread. Just sayin'...

#99 concorde

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 07:08 AM

ok, i am going to condense it all into 2 quick and easy questions that I would like answers to. I will state I have no desire to buy there, but I ask these questions for the benefit of other buyers.

1.) what is the depreciation of the property over the 99 year lease? back this up with complete data from other developments in similar situations. Don't state there is no depreciation for the first 50 years as you have in the past with no back up. I still say that buying a depreciating property for full retail value makes absolutely no sense and that is what Spirit Bay appears to be doing. Prove me wrong.

2.) what guarantees will the developer make that the area around the development, but still on the reserve will be neatly kept and properly maintained. The area looked like a garbage dump before and no one wants to buy there and be surrounded by junk minutes from their house. I suggest this should be a written guarantee from the developer perhaps with a buy back guarantee for the first xx years

I expect clear answers Darlenet8

#100 ressen

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 09:46 AM

















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