110 replies to this topic

[m0nkyman]

Aren't most of the recent festival failures due to a shortage of space due to popularity?

Well, they've been losing a whack of money. That's either poor management or lack of popularity, or a combination....

Victoria is a cuddle, not an orgasm.

Lamest quote. Ever. Makes me want to never, ever return to Victoria.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Article in today's T-C about FolkFest starting up again -- in China:

Chamberlain column: Musicians look to Wild East for new fans
Adrian Chamberlain, Times Colonist
Published: Saturday, July 05, 2008

The Victoria company that once produced Folkfest plans to start up a new festival.

Not in this city, though.

Tyl van Toorn is the CEO of TNT Productions. His production company mounted the FolkFest at the Inner Harbour for the Inter-cultural Association -- that is, before the annual event went belly-up two years ago. (more...)

The article has a page 2, where you'll find this interesting assessment of support for the arts/ festivals in Victoria (note the part I bolded):

...van Toorn does wonder whether Victoria is the best place for such a project. The Inner Harbour is a great location. But what's needed is a long-term commitment from the City of Victoria, instead of year-by-year permission to use the site.

Van Toorn said Duncan is beginning to look more and more favourable.

"The challenge [with the Inner Harbour] is that no one's willing to sign off and say, 'OK, do it here for 10 years.' "

So, can I just add that I absolutely loathe our spineless political city leadership? Just loathe their blindness, their lack of vision, their spinelessness, their inability to say yes, their inability to lead?

I mean, "Duncan is beginning to look more and more favourable"???? Duncan??? For crying out loud.

[Ms. B. Havin]

I feel a bit guilty about my intemperate use of the word "spineless," because, yes, I know our council works long hours and works hard and all that.

And I know Victoria spends more to support the arts than the other municipalities do.

And I know that there will always be other factors to consider when trying to secure a long-term (say, 10 year) commitment to using a piece of downtown land that's essentially in limbo-land.

But it's the cumulative effect of all the little wishy-washy-nesses that has me feeling so exasperated.

I've seen senior members (folks who have been elected for more than one term) flip-flop on issues or waffle out of making decisions too often.

I've seen them make decisions based on partisan lines (VCE or "Green," eg.), clearly indicating that they're thinking more of making decisions based on what, say, a party platform is rather than on what the particular situation posed to the city requires.

They all (regardless of whether they're "left" or "right") have the tendency to refer things back to staff whenever not doing so would entail making a decision that might cost them a vote or two, or referring things to Rob Woodland (?, spelling?), the legal counsel, who is almost always at council meetings, to the point that you wonder who is setting the tone. Is it staff/ counsel / etc. or is it the politicians?

I have seen staff members become frustrated by having things referred back for further study, because they want council to make the decision. Yet council defers to staff because that saves them from making a decision. I've seen that happen when decision-making is controversial.

Well, welcome to politics. What isn't controversial? What won't cost you votes? What won't cause some ass-hat like me to call you names? It's part of the game.

I think most of all I despise party politics. I'd like council & mayor to show leadership, irrespective of what their political or business backers might believe, and I want them to stand up for what they believe in even if it means they'll go up in flames in the next election.

Total fantasy land, I know...

[spanky123]

I am not disagreeing with your assessment of the political environment but wasn't the primary reason why folkfest failed is that they ignored all advice and common sense and like double or tripled ticket prices in order to attract some bigger name musical groups?

[VicHockeyFan]

Hold on. I run three bars, all with with live entertainment. We employ over 70 people that get paid (rather than festival volunteers). How come I can't get a government grant put on festivals, and free volunteer labour?

[Ms. B. Havin]

...wasn't the primary reason why folkfest failed is that they ignored all advice and common sense and like double or tripled ticket prices in order to attract some bigger name musical groups?

I don't know. I'm not even sure there is a primary reason or if it was a bunch of reasons acting in concert (pardon the pun).

I was in a foul mood when I posted my comments, however, because that very same day there was another article in the paper about "the arts" that made me want to spit, too. It had nothing to do with government grants or the city or anything, it was about how people here can't seem to stand it if someone tries something daring, and how they all seem to hope for failure. See Grania Litwin's interesting story, Summer festival sparks discord (also published Sat. July 5).

Cliff notes version: ambitious young man comes to Victoria, wants to grab the musical scene by the ears and shake it, decides to put on a summer music festival, puts up his own money for it (no grants, VHF), and what happens? The established music scene in Victoria gives him a what's-what of an earful about how he shouldn't rock the boat:

Some sour notes have resonated in Victoria's music community since Simon Capet announced his ambitious summer music festival, Euphonia, to be held at the University of Victoria in August.

"Critics have told me this is too small a city, and there aren't enough music lovers to support another musical event," Capet said this week, refusing to name names. "They have also said, and this is my favourite, that if a summer music festival was meant to happen we would already have one."

I call the above example of "if a summer music festival was meant to happen we would already have one" the city/culture/ event planning-by- divine-intervention theory of (not ever) getting things done.

Didn't George Carlin joke that if god had meant for us not to masturbate, he would have given us shorter arms? Well, that "if X was meant to happen then Y" attitude illustrates that joke. Which is why we're all just jerking off instead of getting things done, I guess.

Some people in Victoria are upset with Simon Capet for actually putting on a music festival because ...they've been planning one for two years (and more?), and I guess planned to continue planning instead of doing it, and now that he's doing it, their plans are upset.

Ugh.

Well, excuse me, I have to go shave my palms.

[arfenarf]

I read that article and decided to buy tickets for the series on the principle of the matter.

[Ms. B. Havin]

^ Same here!

[G-Man]

Victorians like things for free. We are cheap. Not sure why but it is a sad truth.

[Nparker]

Victorians like things for free. We are cheap. Not sure why but it is a sad truth.

Hence the popularity of the Canada Day fireworks and Symphony Splash.

[G-Man]

^ Exactly.

[aastra]

Some people in Victoria are upset with Simon Capet for actually putting on a music festival because ...they've been planning one for two years (and more?)

It's crazy. I've made the point before that Victorians deliberated about the new arena issue for ~10-15 years. That represents a huge chunk of the useful lifetime of the building in question. The Memorial Arena lasted just fifty years and it was effectively obsolete for the latter twenty. Depending on how things go in Victoria in the 21st century, we may end up wanting to replace the Save-on Foods Centre even sooner than that.

Centennial Square is younger than the Memorial Arena but just as overdue for a big change. Babies have been born and gone on to graduate from high school since Victorians started planning the new-and-improved version of the square.

The Adelphi Building survived for how long...45 years? The Permanent Loan Building and the Campbell Building weren't much older.

The clock keeps on ticking and nothing lasts forever. Why stall? What do you gain? What are we afraid of?

[Nparker]

The clock keeps on ticking and nothing lasts forever. Why stall? What do you gain? What are we afraid of?

That's an easy one...CHANGE.

[aastra]

Yeah, but I'm trying to say that change will happen and does happen anyway. The Empress Hotel has changed and grown immensely over the decades. Centennial Square will change again and again. So what do the anti-change folks gain by arbitrarily delaying the process?

By that I don't mean to suggest that planning is bad or that informed decisions are bad. Of course not. I'm talking about endless waffling devoid of any real intention of proceeding with anything.

[Ms. B. Havin]

^^^ Good point, aastra, re. dithering around the arena.

Victorians like things for free. We are cheap. Not sure why but it is a sad truth.

This is a tricky one, and is probably due to a bunch of factors. Some thoughts (based on living here for a long time, albeit with a significant hiatus):

• there's a culture here, often immature (i.e., rooted in youth, even if it's 30-40 years out of date), of being "alternative," which makes fun of / looks down on / distrusts "the establishment"
• if you have "home-made" culture / amateur-hour (maybe sort of like what the original FolkFest went for), you don't expect to pay "Hollywood" ticket prices
• you expect to get "alternative" culture cheap, because it's homemade and cheap to make (ha), and you don't want to support "the establishment"
• you even expect this for "classical" art forms, and certainly for visual art, because after all, everyone is an artist (so what's the big deal?) (there's that anti-professionalism again), and my two year old could do that (that's the philistine bleat)
• now you've set things up for a vicious spiral, because you're going to make it very, very difficult for ambitious people who actually want to make culture professionally to be able to do it here: they can't earn enough $ at it
• because you've got this culture of making fun of "da man," you make fun of opera, the symphony, and all that other "old folks" culture, because that's what "the rich" like, and you, as an "alt" sorta free spirit into 'shrooms and such, are so not into that kind of establishment programming, especially since it's so unspontaneous, man...
• you get a culture that makes fun of high-brow, egg-heads, and all that -- even if that culture of making fun is by now 50 years old (everyone loves to reinvent the wheel, it seems)
• meanwhile, the opera and the symphony have actually morphed into fully professional and really quite top-notch operations, and in turn they (surprise!) are attracting a lot of patronage from ...you guessed it, the "establishment"
• self-reinforcing prophecy/ vicious cycle or spiral continues....
• (interestingly, the dress rehearsal performances at Pacific Opera Victoria are almost always sold out -- they're cheap, at ~$12 p/tix -- and are heavily attended by a campy crowd of kids who dress up for it and make a night of it, as well as musicians in training; go figure)
• when people move here from elsewhere, they sort of absorb this, and decide that they need to go elsewhere to experience "real" art, which again reinforces the whole "we're not worth paying (much) for" thing, so you get less patronage than you might expect, given the number of well-off people in Victoria
• that said, the opera, the symphony, the art gallery, some others are finally willing to say, "nah, we're professional and proud of it, and we can compete with the rest," and you're starting to see the development of professional "high" culture here, too

And there are quite a few Victorians willing to shell out significant money to attend events.

But the hippie/ alt mentality that disdains the professional maker of "culture" (and even cringes at the word culture as elitist, unless it's some kind of "folk" or "indie" culture) still persists, too.

I do think that the tide is shifting and that it's starting to be ok to support "high" culture, even if in popular/alternative opinion it's still suspected of being elitist.

The other factor re. money is that people here (rightly?) also feel they get fleeced too often. IMO it's outrageous that something like the Royal BC Museum isn't free -- at least free on one day a week, or on two afternoons. Or that the AGGV doesn't have more free hours (I'm not even sure they have any -- if they do, they're pretty limited, although I haven't checked lately).

When I can afford it, I don't mind paying a lot of money for a ticket to see a really good performer.

But I actually also think that there should be more free quality stuff, in particular in local museums.

[VicHockeyFan]

Hence the popularity of the Canada Day fireworks and Symphony Splash.

If the Splash had a $2 ticket price, its popularity would dwindle, that's how cheap we are.

[Nparker]

If the Splash had a $2 ticket price, its popularity would dwindle, that's how cheap we are.

For once I am in total agreement with you VHF.

[VicHockeyFan]

For once I am in total agreement with you VHF.

Don't make it a habit.

[spanky123]

If the Splash had a $2 ticket price, its popularity would dwindle, that's how cheap we are.

True, but they do all right in donations at the event. If I recall, it actually works out to more than $2 a person!

The "free" performances draw traffic to the city and raise the profile of the various groups involved. I think that it is a win-win for everyone.

[Ms. B. Havin]

I agree w/ Spanky123 and disagree w/ VHF & NParker on this one.

Symphony Splash is popular, maybe because it was / is free, but it has gone way beyond that now, as the money raised via donations shows.

Now it's popular. Maybe people don't want to stand in queues to get tickets or to have them checked or their hands stamped, but neither are they so cheap that they won't willingly fork over some money for it.

I'm not sure Victorians are any "cheaper" than people anywhere else. We're not genetically different.

It's a cultural thing, having to do with opposing "the establishment" and its "high culture" and "rich" patrons, imo. There is a cultural thing in Victoria for having a hate-on for the rich, and for making DIY into a religion.

That sort of thing is not especially singular -- we can all think of dozens of people in dozens of other places who think the same way.

Maybe sometimes, when people fall down too often and their DIY culture doesn't thrive, and they feel oppressed by an absence of economic opportunity because their city is stagnating, they can become ungenerous, and miserly. Crabbed. Cynical. Cheap. I know from personal experience that Victoria can be a downer -- as someone once said re. being frustrated about being able to make money here, "you can't eat the [lovely] scenery."

Re. free & popular and viral: if you've ever been to a 4th of July fireworks & concert with the Boston Pops down on the Esplanade by the river Charles, you'll have seen acreages of wall-to-wall people.

They're there because A) it's free and B) it's popular.

It got to be so popular because it's free.

Now it's a gift to the city (and courtesy of TV, to the country). And that makes it even more popular.

There's nothing wrong with free, if it's given and received in a spirit of generosity.