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Missing Middle Housing Initiative (MMHI) in the City of Victoria


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#3921 IPH

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Posted 12 January 2025 - 05:13 PM

Since Oxford Foods closed, that's a long walk to the grocery store for those units. The bank also closed in Cook St. village. We used to make use of both of those, now we have to drive. And yes, we still go to a bank in person from time to time. I guess you could walk to the drug store in Cook St. village or Fairfield Plaza, but again, it's a long walk, esp. if you're pressed for time. We live in this area and don't consider ourselves in Rockland, but Fairfield. 

I agree they feel more Fairfield than Rockland but the City draws the line down the middle of Richardson and up the middle of Linden.  So the North side of Richardson and East side of Linden are Rockland, and the South and West are Fairfield. 

 

I live around the corner and regularly walk to Market on Yates, Root Celler, and the Moss Street market for most of my groceries.  The Cook Street village is only a 10 minute walk and has a Pharmacy, the Root Celler, a liquor store, multiple restaurants, 3 coffee shops, a health food store, a dentist, a pet store, a pub, etc.  TD and RBC at Fort & Douglas are only a 20 minute walk which is also reasonably close.  If someone wants all those types of services closer, they can always move into one of the new buildings downtown, but I personally wouldn't want to run the gauntlet outside the door of a lot of downtown condos these days. 



#3922 IPH

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Posted 12 January 2025 - 05:29 PM

Nothing in life is guaranteed forever, but 3 years is a reasonable amount of time to prove that the vehicle gets used.  Modo is pretty good at assessing the uptake of their vehicles and I have not heard of them moving any cars off projects in Victoria.

 

Value is a subjective thing but given half the units are sold the market seems to be supportive of the price point of these units.  There are currently no other brand new, move in ready units in Fairfield or Rockland at these price points but the spring market will provide some more data.  :)


Edited by IPH, 12 January 2025 - 05:29 PM.


#3923 Barrister

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Posted 12 January 2025 - 07:57 PM

Well lets hope for a strong spring market. 



#3924 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 12 January 2025 - 10:58 PM

Value is a subjective thing but given half the units are sold the market seems to be supportive of the price point of these units.  There are currently no other brand new, move in ready units in Fairfield or Rockland at these price points but the spring market will provide some more data.  :)

 

Which suggests that these don't carry a very high price point, with no parking available for some of them.  Or I guess that is the point, they are more affordable.

 

TWO questions though.

 

 

There are 24 units and about half are sold.  There are 10 parking stalls available for rent.  How many parking stalls are already taken?  

 

What is the monthly parking rate?

 

 

101B - 670 sq. ft. (2 bed 1 bath) - $599,900 = $895 per sq. ft.

302C - 518 sq. ft. (1 and 1 top floor) -  $489,000 = $944 per sq. ft.

202B - 472 sq. ft. (1 and 1) - $479,900 = $1,016  

102B - 457 (1 and 1) - $449,000 = $938

 

 

None of these listings suggest there is an option for rental parking, is that because there is none left?

 

 

 

 

Haven by Chard (different type of living, for sure), move-in ready.

 

310-115 Johnson - 512 sq. ft. 1 bed 1 bath - $479,900 - $937 sq. ft. (price includes storage and parking).  Strata fee here is about $80 more than 1224.

101-115 Johnson - 562 sq. ft. 1 and 1 - $449,900 - $800 sq. ft. (price includes storage and parking).  Strata fee here is about $80 more than 1224.

116-1115 Johnson - 865 sq. ft. 2 and 2 - $699,900 - $809 sq. ft. (price includes storage and parking)

** no parking - 502-1115 Johnson - 512 sq. ft. 1 and 1 - $430,000 - $839 per sq. ft. 

Building amenities feature a community room, children's playground, and access to an exclusive Ebike and car share program.


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 12 January 2025 - 11:24 PM.


#3925 IPH

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 09:45 AM

Sorry for the confusion, the parking stalls are not for rent, they are sold separately from the units so people have a choice.  We are catering to a different demographic many of who do not own a car and those that do are willing to pay extra for it to live in this neighborhood.  Over half our buyers have chosen not to purchase a parking stall as they don't want or need one.  

 

Nest and Haven have some wonderful new homes but they are in Fernwood directly across Cook street from the Downtown Core, not a traditional residential area like Rockland/Fairfield.  They are also a very different product than 1224 Richardson.  They are high-rise units in an urban core setting, Richardson is a low rise development with a traditional house style design.  Nest is a large high density development and has some amenities that Richardson doesn't, and Richardson is a small boutique development with gardens, grass and trees.  Most of the units you reference for comparison are interior units with suites on either side so only have windows on one side and many of them look directly into the building next door.  All of our 1 bedroom suites are corner units with multiple windows on two walls that flood the unit with natural light and our two bedroom units have exterior walls with windows on 3 sides.  I'm not saying one is better or worse, but everyone has different wants and needs and these two very different products provide options for people to choose. 

 

As I said before value is a subjective thing.  Price per sqft is one measure of value but not the only one.  The price per sqft for most single family homes is significantly less than most condos but that doesn't make them the best value.  Many people who could afford a SFH choose condos for their lower overall price and use the savings for other purposes.  On the other hand, land costs in more desirable neighborhoods are generally higher and many people choose homes with a higher price per sqft to live in those neighborhoods over other areas. 

 

A number of our purchasers have sold units (new and old) in the downtown core to move into 1224 Richardson.  But someone else has also bought the unit they sold.  It all depends on what people want, what they can afford, and what constitutes value for them.      :wave:   


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#3926 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 09:50 AM

Yup for sure I was not trying to make a direct parallel fo the Chard project for pricing. But Q:

How many parking stalls are sold, and what was the cost?

You say only half the buyers have selected one, so are there still ~5 available? At what price?

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 13 January 2025 - 09:51 AM.


#3927 Mike K.

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 10:12 AM

Marlowe is selling exterior surface stalls for $12,500, for comparison.


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#3928 Barrister

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 11:34 AM

I dont always agree with IPH but I think he has put it fairly in terms that these are different products. The other point that has not been raised is whether there is street parking on Richardson that might substitute for stall parking. 


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#3929 IPH

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 11:41 AM

The parking stalls at Richardson are $30K.  5 stalls have been sold, 3 are reserved for visitors, 1 for the Modo car and one remains available for purchase.  There is also lots of residential street parking as well, which may or may not be available at Marlowe but isn't available at most downtown buildings.  

 

Marlowe is located in Saanich's Gordon Head neighborhood with lower initial land costs than Rockland/Fairfield.  Their one bedroom units also start at $500K compared to $429K for 1224 Richardson and their two bedroom units start at $650K compared to $540K at Richardson so comparisons of parking cost/value in isolation of the total ownership costs is not apples to apples.  

 

The attached article by Leo S.  The cost of parking – House Hunt Victoria is an interesting read.  It suggests that the value of a parking stall in Victoria is about $50K.  However, that's for a mix of surface and underground stalls across the City of Victoria so its hard to isolate the value of a surface stall in each neighborhood. I believe it is also mostly resale data and doesn't necessarily reflect the cost of building new parking which like the buildings themself will be more expensive than existing older stock.  but his conclusion is that:

"With new developments likely skewing towards having less parking, it will attract tenants that don’t require it, while residents that do will gravitate more towards buildings with parking, making more efficient use of parking space in the city as a whole.  With the high cost of land, using it more efficiently should improve housing availability and affordability, though it may increase the cost of parking over time."



#3930 Mike K.

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 11:54 AM

"With new developments likely skewing towards having less parking, it will attract tenants that don’t require it, while residents that do will gravitate more towards buildings with parking, making more efficient use of parking space in the city as a whole.  With the high cost of land, using it more efficiently should improve housing availability and affordability, though it may increase the cost of parking over time."

 

 

So the take-away is that tenants who don't require parking, won't live where there is parking?

 

I'm not sure if I agree with that conclusion.


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#3931 IPH

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 12:10 PM

I didn't write the article so don't want to put words in the author's mouth.  But I think he is try to say that tenants that don't require parking likely don't want to pay for it.  So if parking drives up the cost, they may chose to live elsewhere if its cheaper and has everything else they want/need. 



#3932 Barrister

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 12:53 PM

On our way home I stopped by the Richardson development, there is on street parking available but not a lot of empty spots even midday, may get busy after work hours.

 

The project looks nice and tidy. How many units sold in the last few months as opposed to presales? But it looks like a good product.

 

Cheers



#3933 Mike K.

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 01:15 PM

I didn't write the article so don't want to put words in the author's mouth. But I think he is try to say that tenants that don't require parking likely don't want to pay for it. So if parking drives up the cost, they may chose to live elsewhere if its cheaper and has everything else they want/need.

The market has shown, though, that over time, the cost of no-parking units starts to lift closer to the value of units with parking.

So it’s the residents who buy the parking, actually subsidizing those who choose not to buy it if we’re talking about the same project where the option to buy is available.

Ie, a unit selling for $500k with parking will not, all things being equal, be competing with a unit priced at $450k in perpetuity. Over time, the unit without parking will creep closer to the value of the unit with parking.

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#3934 Barrister

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 01:19 PM

That's an very interesting stat, what do you think is the driver behind that? Wonder how it plays out moving forward, is it the same experience of price gap closure in New York or other cities with a longer history?



#3935 Mike K.

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 01:25 PM

It’s the same economic principal as the disparity between different trims of a vehicle, except reversed as cars are a depreciating asset class.

Brand new, the Limited trim at $75k is 50% more expensive than the bare bones trim at $50k. After several years, the used car market views the discrepancy at a 30% premium. After 10 years, the two cars are $2,500 apart, all things being equal.

I see the House Hunt article as just an idea out of thin air, that leans heavily on the notion that because an idea has some merit then it must be true.

The reality is, buying a unit without parking becomes more expensive per square foot over time on the resale market, and you don’t have the economic advantage of the parking stall (it can earn you income, if nothing more). It’ll also be more likelier to sell faster with a stall.
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#3936 Barrister

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 01:37 PM

You are making some good points Mike. I wonder how big the pool of non car buyers will be moving forward. 



#3937 dasmo

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 01:39 PM

Can I just buy the parking spot?
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#3938 Mike K.

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 01:49 PM

You are making some good points Mike. I wonder how big the pool of non car buyers will be moving forward.


The tricky thing for non-car buyers, too, is they also compete with value-driven with-car buyers. And that has another price effect on no-parking units because they will still sell to buyers with a car, who will figure out their parking situation some other way.
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#3939 lanforod

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 02:07 PM

Can I just buy the parking spot?

 

Usually no.



#3940 IPH

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Posted 13 January 2025 - 02:09 PM

The market has shown, though, that over time, the cost of no-parking units starts to lift closer to the value of units with parking.

So it’s the residents who buy the parking, actually subsidizing those who choose not to buy it if we’re talking about the same project where the option to buy is available.

Ie, a unit selling for $500k with parking will not, all things being equal, be competing with a unit priced at $450k in perpetuity. Over time, the unit without parking will creep closer to the value of the unit with parking.

So does this mean that new units without parking are a better investment than ones with?  We have some units available with out parking at a $30K discount to those with parking, please don't start a stampede!  :lol:  



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