3534 replies to this topic

[lanforod]

That's probably true. Wasn't the point i was making.

[Mike K.]

It shows, that Victoria already uses its land mass more efficiently than do Toronto and Calgary, in terms of density.

Victoria does not have a “missing” middle problem. Saanich does, and so does Oak Bay. Right next door to Victoria, their densities are vastly smaller.

[lanforod]

We have a higher detailed version of this https://www.sightlin...awl_vict_cs04m/ somewhere? Not sure what date that is at either. In any case, it looks pretty accurate, and shows some areas where density is really low.

[Victoria Watcher]

Saanich is happy to sit back and watch Victoria make all these mistakes. They use Victoria for cover, be it on housing, or homeless, or whatever.

[Mike K.]

That's probably true. Wasn't the point i was making.

I know what you’re saying, but Victoria does not control Greater Victoria. It has jurisdiction over its own turf.

The missing middle is a fallacy in Victoria. City Hall has usurped a term currently in vogue elsewhere, and applied it here. But the numbers don’t lie.

In fact, Victoria's existing missing middle housing is what is unraveling the Missing Middle Initiative. It turns out, tenants in existing missing middle will be displaced, and that housing is the most affordable housing in the muni. There is no conscionable politician who can vote to support MMI, when it means thousands of otherwise affordable units will be replaced by new, very expensive housing with only a marginally higher density, if that.

[lanforod]

Saanich density includes that rural west side though - if you exclude the extreme low density of west Saanich which is rural/forest, its going to show as pretty high density compared to those other cities.
Oak Bay, if you split into North/South, will show higher density in the south, similar to much of Victoria, no? 

 

In general, the closer to go to downtown CoV, the higher the density is in the region, with some pockets of higher density like central Langford, Sidney etc. 
Thats true for most cities. 

[Nparker]

This graphic must not have been drawn up during the occupation of Beacon Hill Park.

[lanforod]

I know what you’re saying, but Victoria does not control Greater Victoria. It has jurisdiction over its own turf.

The missing middle is a fallacy in Victoria. City Hall has usurped a term currently in vogue elsewhere, and applied it here. But the numbers don’t lie.

In fact, Victoria's existing missing middle housing is what is unraveling the Missing Middle Initiative. It turns out, tenants in existing missing middle will be displaced, and that housing is the most affordable housing in the muni. There is no conscionable politician who can vote to support MMI, when it means thousands of otherwise affordable units will be replaced by new, very expensive housing with only a marginally higher density, if that.

 

For sure. This initiative isn't going to fix anything. What could 'fix' things is releasing west Saanich to full development. Remove from ALR, plan and zone it all appropriately. Boom, room for 500k people in the type of housing they actually want.

[Mike K.]

In general, the closer to go to downtown CoV, the higher the density is in the region, with some pockets of higher density like central Langford, Sidney etc.
Thats true for most cities.

That not quite true.

Take a look at Sidney. Over 12,000 residents across 5km.

It’s more a matter of whether a community is pro density, or not, than its distance to a downtown core.

I don’t think any pocket of Saanich has 12,000 residents across 5km.

[Mike K.]

For sure. This initiative isn't going to fix anything. What could 'fix' things is releasing west Saanich to full development. Remove from ALR, plan and zone it all appropriately. Boom, room for 500k people in the type of housing they actually want.

West Saanich, Highlands, Central Saanich, North Saanich, Metchosin.

Currently Sooke is building more housing than all of those places combined.

It’s absurd.

[Sparky]

For sure. This initiative isn't going to fix anything. What could 'fix' things is releasing west Saanich to full development. Remove from ALR, plan and zone it all appropriately. Boom, room for 500k people in the type of housing they actually want.

Good thing the Urban Containment Boundary was established in the late 60’s so those whims of yours remain just that.

https://www.saanich....d-security.html

[lanforod]

And it's largely because of the UCB that folks like Mike K can point at Saanich for being 'low density'. 

[Mike K.]

Or, is Victoria’s density just really, really high?

Is there a part of Saanich with more than 5,000 people per square km?

[Mike K.]

Here, let’s try this.

Saanich has a 104km land mass.

Let’s split that in half, giving half to rural Saanich, parks, etc, but placing -all- residents into non-rural Saanich.

So at 52km, with rural and urban residents, Saanich has a density below 2,300 people per km.

Victoria is just over 4,700 people.

So yes, Saanich is very low density, for what it’s worth. It could double it’s population and not reach parity with Victoria’s density, even when we remove half of its actual land size.

[Victoria Watcher]

It’s funny that we want to keep shoving more and more people into the areas already developed. When we have the other 99% of the country and we have no intention of turning down immigration.

[Mike K.]

Not only that, but we have fully functional, already developed communities all over the place dying a slow death.

[lanforod]

I guess part of the problem is, we don't have a "here's the best density in a modern city" number.

Is 2300/sq km a good target?

4700?

5600 (e.g. Vancouver)?

7000 (e.g. San Francisco)?

Or perhaps 1000?

100?

[Mike K.]

Maybe the answer lies somewhere amid figuring out where people are most content.

I’d wager, Saanich residents are collectively far, far more content than CoV residents. Is that a product of density? Government?

Currently, the most dense area is the most controversial and has the most turbulent politics.

I get the sense residents are generally happy in 12 of 13 municipalities. The only consternation appears to come from Victoria, save for small special interest groups (Voters for Change in Langford is tiny and attracts malcontents who can’t be happy anywhere).

[lanforod]

Or is it a product of Helps and Isitt? 

 

Certainly seems to me, the LESS dense a city, the happier. There is a crossover somewhere though.

[Mike K.]

Does density attract the Helps and Isitts?

It certainly attracts Saanich residents. Two of them are currently elected officials in Victoria, but zero Victorians are elected in Saanich.