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Long COVID and ME/CFS (Post viral syndromes)


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#21 laconic

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 10:54 AM

“Even individuals who have very mild symptoms or even no symptoms can develop long-term sequelae (after-effects) of COVID,” she said, adding that applies to people who are vaccinated and unvaccinated.

As the director of the Long-COVID Research Clinic at the Institut de recherches cliniques de Montreal (IRCM), Falcone has seen patients who are 18 months post-infection and still have lingering and sometimes serious health problems.

“It's extremely alarming. Several who were very high functioning, very healthy now find themselves in a situation where they just cannot go back to work. They're more than a year out. And they're basically taking early retirement in some cases,” said Falcone.

https://montreal.ctv...covid-1.5732653

#22 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 10:56 AM

Looks like entire organizations have sprung up. Many to help provide government benefits like early retirement. Of course they “cannot go back to work”. Sitting at home is more preferable for many.

Sounds like a good gig.



As the director of the Long-COVID Research Clinic at the Institut de recherches cliniques de Montreal (IRCM), Falcone has seen patients who are 18 months post-infection and still have lingering and sometimes serious health problems.

“It's extremely alarming. Several who were very high functioning, very healthy now find themselves in a situation where they just cannot go back to work. They're more than a year out. And they're basically taking early retirement in some cases,” said Falcone.





Who would have guessed? It’s a female. And she is also claiming the long-haul symptoms herself.

People are softer than they ever have been in the history of the world.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 08 January 2022 - 11:04 AM.


#23 Matt R.

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 06:07 PM


People are softer than they ever have been in the history of the world.

 

No kidding, have you seen some of these people when they're told they need to wear a mask?  Full on baby tantrum from full grown adults.  I just stand back and let them finish now before reminding them they are wasting their time, nobody is going to serve them.  They usually tell me they are never coming back and they will be contacting the owner about this.  Typically, they come back very soon and I have yet to hear from anyone's lawyer. :)


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#24 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 07:00 PM

Follow the money.

 

 

 

 

 

Wall Street Journal:

 

The Dubious Origins of Long Covid

 

Echoes of chronic fatigue in the effort to blame the coronavirus for a host of questionable symptoms.

 

https://www.wsj.com/...vid-11616452583

 

‘Long Covid,” or post-Covid syndrome, is an emerging condition that has attracted great media attention—and now federal funding. The National Institutes of Health last month announced a $1.15 billion initiative to research the “prolonged health consequences” of Covid-19 infection.

 

The topic deserves serious study. Some patients, particularly older ones with co-morbidities, do experience symptoms that outlast a coronavirus infection. But such symptoms can also be psychologically generated or caused by a physical illness unrelated to the prior infection. Long Covid is largely an invention of vocal patient activist groups. Legitimizing it with generous funding risks worsening the symptoms the NIH is hoping to treat.

 

 

 

 

Forbes (2013):

 

 

How Americans Game the $200 Billion-a-Year 'Disability-Industrial Complex'

 

 

https://www.forbes.c...sh=418a01144b6d

 

 

https%3A%2F%2Fb-i.forbesimg.com%2Ftheapo


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 08 January 2022 - 07:05 PM.


#25 laconic

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 09:24 PM

So much for following the misogyny.

#26 kirk

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 12:32 AM

Stop judging something you are not informed about. And leave the misogyny out of it.

 

This is nothing new. Historically after viruses it has been about 10% of people affected with chronic fatigue syndrome / myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME) . There are even small cohorts of people in Victoria with it from particular viruses that were around at certain periods of time.

 

People just don't like to believe that life is unfair like this because it is. Makes you feel better to assume it would never happen to you. 

 

Studies show:

-After Mono (Epistein-Barr virus), Q fever & Ross River, 12% met criteria for ME/CFS 6 months after clearing their infections 

-20% of patients with West Nile Virus met CFS criteria 6 months after tests first retuened negative for West Nile

-27% of SARS survivors were found to meet CFS criteria several years after developing SARS

 

I work in health care & personally know 3 people with long-COVID in Victoria (1 year+ since they were infected) - they are athletes and lawyers and parents who want anything to be back to normal. 

 

This is nothing new. People just don't like to believe that life is unfair like this because it is. Makes you feel better to assume it would never happen to you. 


Edited by kirk, 09 January 2022 - 12:34 AM.

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#27 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 12:46 AM

Yes. Hypochondria is indeed nothing new.


Mayo Clinic:

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), published by the American Psychiatric Association, no longer includes hypochondriasis — also called hypochondria — as a diagnosis. Instead, people previously diagnosed with hypochondriasis may be diagnosed as having illness anxiety disorder, in which the focus of the fear and worry is on uncomfortable or unusual physical sensations being an indication of a serious medical condition.

On the other hand, somatic symptom disorder ― a related disorder ― involves focusing on the disabling nature of physical symptoms, such as pain or dizziness, without the worry that these symptoms represent a specific illness.

https://www.mayoclin...es/syc-20373782


It’s certainly not new and it is “real” in the minds of 5-10% of the population.



Even the healthiest people experience annoying little aches and pains occasionally. Most of us tend to ignore them or just learn to live with them. However, for 5 percent to 10 percent of the population who suffer from hypochondria, these minor maladies are exaggerated into major illnesses.

https://www.sandiego...-htmlstory.html

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 09 January 2022 - 12:50 AM.


#28 kirk

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 07:44 PM

Post above only further proof you have no idea what you are talking about.  

 

Women also have far more inflammatory conditions than men. So since ME/CFS can be neuroinflammatory conditions it is not surprising that it is also more common in women.

 

Women also have 4x more multiple sclerosis than men, but we don't assume that is psychosomatic.

 

There is also some overlap with dysautonomia (which is also more common in women who are generally more likely mobile & more likely to have hypermobility disorders like Ehlers Danlo Syndrome). Easier to have postural tachycardia syndrome (POTS) when your heart is smaller or your vessels are more extensible. Takes an average of 7 years to get diagnosed with POTS (because it is often misdiagnosed as anxiety) - there was a swimmer who competed in the NCAA swimming championships a few years ago & then jumped off a bridge after (she did not get diagnosed early enough & suffered greatly).  This is why we do not allow the misogyny above to continue. 

 

Again these conditions are multi-factorial. We are lucky to have a world renowned researcher on ME/CFS in Vancouver Dr. Nacul (Director of Complex Chronic Diseases Program)- his studies are available online. I get that human brains like things to be black and white but that is not how many health conditions work.

 

Long COVID does seem to have similar overlap with ME/CFS but there are also some differences in presentation. 

 

Long COVID also appears to have more cardiovascular symptoms like tacchycardia (racing heart rate). Also changes related to lungs or capillaries (toes, fingers) that are less common in ME CFS.

 

There is testing that can be done with ME CFS that shows people can produce the same output on Day 1 of testing, but on the 2nd day even though they are working as hard, they are unable to produce the same amount. 

 

But hopefully the funding will help will both conditions.  


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#29 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 07:54 PM

I posted links to WSJ, Forbes, Mayo Climic and the SDT. You can say I don’t know what I’m taking about but I actually posted articles with experts.

#30 Mattjvd

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Posted 09 January 2022 - 08:14 PM

I posted links to WSJ, Forbes, Mayo Climic and the SDT. You can say I don’t know what I’m taking about but I actually posted articles with experts.


You posted an opinion piece from the WSJ, a story not related to long-covid from Forbes, and a definition of a condition not related to long-covid from the Mayo Clinic.
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#31 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 10 January 2022 - 01:16 AM

Follow the money:


About 20 clinics across Canada are specifically helping the so-called long haulers

_______


Even if Rendely and the others can't find anything structurally wrong with their patients, it doesn't mean the health concerns are less valid. "I think as physicians we should believe our patients with the symptoms that they're experiencing," she said.

https://www.cbc.ca/n...ation-1.6306761

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 10 January 2022 - 01:17 AM.


#32 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 10 January 2022 - 06:21 AM

The Oxford University research analysed health records of people diagnosed with flu and Covid, mainly in the US.

 

The two groups - both with just over 100,000 patients - included people seeking healthcare for symptoms three to six months after infection.

 

These included problems such as anxiety, abnormal breathing, fatigue and headaches.

 

There were signs that Covid patients were more likely to have long-term symptoms - 42% had at least one symptom recorded compared with 30% in the flu group.

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/...health-58726775

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given that people that have had the flu account for at least 1000x more people than those that have had covid, where are the long-haul flu centres located?

 

 


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 10 January 2022 - 06:22 AM.


#33 amor de cosmos

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Posted 11 January 2022 - 09:38 AM

Could microclots help explain the mystery of long Covid?
https://www.theguard...arch-microclots

#34 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 11 January 2022 - 09:51 AM

The OCD Center of Los Angeles estimates that 4-6 percent of Americans suffer from debilitating hypochondria. The COVID-19 pandemic has likely caused this number to increase. As more people become infected with COVID, it is to be expected that more people find they are overwhelmed by the worry of becoming sick.

COVID Hypochondria doesn’t just affect those of us who have had a COVID diagnosis. Our exposure to the numbers and daily tragic news exacerbates our anxiety of dying or becoming gravely ill.

https://achieveconci...d-hypochondria/

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 11 January 2022 - 09:51 AM.


#35 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 07:44 AM

Another wildcard is who is most likely to turn into a COVID-19 long-hauler. The clinics have combed through the database of patients to try and correlate laboratory abnormalities and symptoms. So far, they haven’t been able to find anything in a person’s medical history that makes them more likely to develop long-COVID symptoms. 

 

“There are lots of theories out there. And honestly, I think it's going to be a while before there's an actual determination for what is causing these long symptoms,” said Schwartz.

 

Internationally, the head of the VGH clinic says some patterns are emerging — one of the biggest predictors for developing long COVID is being female between ages 40 and 55.

 

“This is a very young population who typically does not require access to medical care,” said Schwartz. “It's going to be a very large amount of people who are going to need to access care and in a relatively short amount of time — just because it's all coming up once.”

 

“It may be a huge burden on the health-care system.”

 

 

 

 

https://www.timescol...atients-4944908

 

 

 

Anecdotal of course, but that demographic seems to be the most hysterical in general about covid on twitter.  Go into any thread about kids going to school or not with covid.  Holy cow.



#36 Mattjvd

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 09:11 AM

This is such a bizarre angle, VW. I don't know why you're obsessed with trying to tell us long-term post viral symptoms are all in your head. Especially when you combine it with overt sexism. Seriously? You think it affecting women in their 40s the most is explained by "they're hysterical." Come on.

Edited by Mattjvd, 14 January 2022 - 09:15 AM.

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#37 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 09:36 AM

It’s just that I’ve been watching a few videos on Spotify lately about mass psychosis.

Doing my own research.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 14 January 2022 - 09:47 AM.

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#38 Mattjvd

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 09:56 AM

It’s just that I’ve been watching a few videos on Spotify lately about mass psychosis.

Doing my own research.

If you're curious to do some more, may I suggest:

An explanation of the differences in immune systems between the sexes:
https://www.nature.c...les/nri.2016.90

The above is the fundamental mechanism to why women suffer the vast majority (2:1 to 4:1, depending on the condition) of all auto immune diseases (explanation of prevelence of auto immune disease): https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC7292717/

It is not surprising that women experience side-effects from massive immune responses to infection at the same prevelance they experience autoimmune disease (relative to men).

Edited by Mattjvd, 14 January 2022 - 09:58 AM.

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