65 replies to this topic

[Victoria Watcher]

I’m again just not sure. Do we make planning and rezoning decisions based on “where the profit is being spent”?

Did we make decisions on Songhees or Dockside or Railyatds or any Chard building based on where the profit was spent?

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 14 November 2023 - 01:48 PM.

[lanforod]

Definitely prefer the second option. Christ Church would look tacky when the taller modern tower is built behind it. Love the compactness of the lower towers for option 2.

 

Does Christ Church Cathedral on Burrard in Vancouver look tacky? It's surrounded by tall modern towers (much taller than these).

 

https://www.google.c...i8192?entry=ttu

Edited by lanforod, 14 November 2023 - 01:55 PM.

[Victoria Watcher]

2020:


The data show the church running out of members in little more than two decades if it continues to decline at its current rate, Elliot said in a Nov. 8 presentation to CoGS.

“We’ve got simple projections from our data that suggest that there will be no members, attenders or givers in the Anglican Church of Canada by approximately 2040,” he said.


https://anglicanjour...ne-by-2040/amp/

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 14 November 2023 - 02:00 PM.

[aastra]

Can we at least agree to prohibit highrise redevelopment on the YMCA property? You know, to protect the cathedral district from highrise buildings?

[aastra]

Things are changing. Things aren't like they used to be, or like they used to used to be.

 

 

Daily Colonist
January 25, 1969

Highrise May Adjoin Christ Church

The cathedral will not be completed in accordance with plans drawn up several decades ago.

"The plan has been officially abandoned," Dean Brian Whitlow said Saturday. "It called for a copy of an Old Country Gothic cathedral, cruciform in shape with a tower."

VASTNESS
It would have meant extending the cathedral by almost as much as its present length. Such vastness is not conducive to modern worship, the dean said.

"...We feel we should build for the 20th century, not the 13th."

 

--

Edited by aastra, 06 December 2023 - 03:57 PM.

[aastra]

Could the cathedral's people claim a very tall tower was always part of the old plan so therefore a very tall tower should be no problem in the enlightened new plan? Build for the 21st-century, not for the 20th?

 

Edited by aastra, 14 November 2023 - 03:39 PM.

[Victoria Watcher]

If no church-goers will be going there in 2040, what's the actual plan?

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 14 November 2023 - 02:38 PM.

[aastra]

 

Build for the 21st-century, not the 20th?

 

Think of the old concept as if it was the glory of ancient Rome,
Think of the late 20th-century and early 21st-century development restrictions as if they were the dark ages,
Think of today as if we were the Jetsons.

[Lashlarue]

If no church-goers will be going there in 2040, what's the actual plan?

I imagine it will be something like a private museum with worship services at Easter and Christmas

[Victoria Watcher]

I imagine it will be something like a private museum with worship services at Easter and Christmas

 

But where would operating funds come from?

 

It's running at a $450,000/ yr. loss right now:

 

https://dq5pwpg1q8ru...l combined.pdf 

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 14 November 2023 - 03:07 PM.

[Nparker]

...Think of today as if we were the Jetsons.

The Jetsons takes place in 2062, and George Jetson is 40 years old, which means he was born last year.

https://www.kiro7.co...RFKFPGEZWP2XEQ/

[aastra]

 

Do we make planning and rezoning decisions based on “where the profit is being spent”?

 

Call me an idealist, but methinks most planning and rezoning decisions are grounded in self-defeating adversarial principles re: this versus that, you versus me, my interests against your interests, taking one thing down a notch to build another thing up a notch, etc. rather than simply doing good things and preserving/enhancing the good things that already exist, which would benefit everyone.

 

We've inherited many great old things that we ourselves never could have created and never would have created, because our vision is too narrow now. Thus, many of those great old things have since been diminished or even lost outright.

[Mike K.]

They already get a property tax break.

Not sure that the general public should supply more.

If fair is fair, we should give them back everything they spent on social services that the State should have supplied, including all of the volunteer hours which can be provided as lump sum payments to the volunteers, or their families/descendants.

How does $75 million sound, for the last hundred years of social outreach and services provided for free?

[Nparker]

If CCC can provide receipts for their social outreach it can be considered.

[aastra]

 

If fair is fair, we should give them back everything they spent on social services that the State should have supplied...

 

How about a fair accounting of the tourism dollar value of the various churches and cathedrals, hotel buildings, commercial buildings, mansions and private homes, etc. over the decades?

 

(crickets chirping, because that kind of thinking re: the whole is greater than its individual parts doesn't compute with the adversarial "screw the other guy" mindset)

[aastra]

 

if fair is fair, we should give them back everything they spent on social services that the State should have supplied...

 

Did it ever occur to you that the government's dereliction of its own responsibilities is what energized the church's programs and overall purpose? Effective government is about offsetting and counterbalancing the good things that other people do. Gotta work those dualities.

[Victoria Watcher]

For example, Wiseman noted that for the past 10 years, everyone has been talking about rental projects, but now in a high-interest-rate environment, developers are back to considering condominiums.

 

“So it’s about baking in some flexibility while giving the neighbourhood some certainty,” she said.

 

Wiseman said they are hoping to be through the rezoning process in 18 months, at which point they will start talking to potential development partners.

 

She said the first phase of development would be a residential building and likely an amenity building for the community, noting the goal is to build first on existing parking lots before considering other parts of the site.

 

And as money flows from those early projects, work will begin to upgrade the cathedral and other buildings to add more washroom facilities, improve accessibility and establish things like a commercial kitchen for weddings and other events, and meeting spaces.

 

Wiseman said the church is seen as a civic space, often rented by local groups and is used as a concert venue.

 

Greenwood-Lee called the cathedral a destination for tourism, arts, worship and learning. “It’s the city’s cathedral and we’d like it to remain that way as much as possible.”

 

 

 

https://www.timescol...roperty-7832947

 

 

Wiseman said the church is seen as a civic space, often rented by local groups and is used as a concert venue.

 

 

That was only $100,000 in income though.  Compared to a $1m operating cost and a $450k deficit this year.

[Mike K.]

There was (is?) a 90 meter height limit radius zone around St. Andrew’s Cathedral on Blanshard at View. But I suspect it may no longer apply, with the approval of the 10-storey office tower at the Cap 6 spot.

I also assume the OCP amendment being sought by Christ Church is to do away with the height limit restriction around the cathedral.

[Victoria Watcher]

I really don’t know. This new Bishop comes to town (from Alberta and Ontario) and right away she’s developing a plan for - redevelopment.

The timeline would suggest she engaged the consultants within 6 months of arrival.

I’m not saying she can’t have good ideas - or any ideas of course.

But again I’m wondering who this is being done for, since their own figures Indicate zero congregation by 2040. A date that might arrive before this project is complete.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 15 November 2023 - 07:22 AM.

[Victoria Watcher]

There was (is?) a 90 meter height limit radius zone around St. Andrew’s Cathedral on Blanshard at View. But I suspect it may no longer apply, with the approval of the 10-storey office tower at the Cap 6 spot.

I also assume the OCP amendment being sought by Christ Church is to do away with the height limit restriction around the cathedral.

So what is the purpose of the cathedral district OCP part?

To “protect” the cathedral for the benefit of the cathedral ownership, or for all of us?