82 replies to this topic

[valdez12]

http://www.canada.co... ... 35&k=28140

They repeat things already mentioned here but it is nice to read about it in the big paper

[VicHockeyFan]

1 millions cars trips per day, compared to just 36 bus routes with 178 busses running.

It shows you how public transit is a drop in the bucket.

[aastra]

Transit is less significant for sure, but then again:

- On a typical weekday, transit carries 89,000 trips. This accounts for 7.6% of all daily trips in the region.
- Transit accounts for 21% of all trips to and from downtown

source: CRD Transit Strategy Working Paper (August 2003)
http://www.crd.bc.ca... ... forWeb.pdf

We can conclude that transit is much more important in Victoria and especially in downtown Victoria than it is in the suburbs.

...a burst of condominiums and townhouses will put an additional 3,330 people in the one-time industrial hub of Vic West.

Yep, but does that mean there will be traffic issues? Let's consider the traffic in and out of areas like the Songhees, the Railyards, or the Selkirk. Gridlock? More like snoozefest. Traffic on the Songhees is nonexistent.

Traffic in Victoria has hardly changed at all in my lifetime. Meanwhile, traffic in the suburbs and to/from the suburbs is getting worse and worse. If I didn't know better, I'd swear suburban development produces more vehicle traffic than development in the city...

[UrbanRail]

I wish the TC would correct their mistakes before they publish. It states that the picture is of Helmcken overpass, but it is actually Millstream Rd overpass.

anyway,

the stupid thing is that most if not all of the development in the westshore is not transit or pedestrian oriented.

more and more people are moving to the westshore and lower CVRD, which means more traffic on the TCH, Colwood crawl, Veterans Memorial Parkway and Sooke Rd. Which then leads to more traffic in the core municipalities.

More roads isnt the answer, but improving transit is, as well as promoting cycling and walking.
I have heard that people say we arent big enough for LRT, Rapid Bus and commuter rail that we should wait until we hit 500,000+. Wait? Wait until what? By the time we wait to hit that population mark, the traffic problem is going to be so bad, that people are going to be saying why didnt we put in rapid transit in the first place. And shouldnt transit be shaping where density is going, not the other way around?

Wait until the whole lower island is sprawl infested?

We have things going for us to put in commuter rail and/or light rail. We are on an island (surrounded by water), we have only three main corridors out the city; TCH and Pat Bay Hwy and the E&N Rwy. We are restricted by the farmland on the peninsula, mountains on the malahat as well as parks and nature reserves. The E&N goes thru all major communites up island (exceptions are Mill Bay and the future Bamberton project). We have growing seniors population, which should be a concern.

It is obvious that the hwy improvement projects of the late 90s did nothing but postphone the problem for a few years down the road (which we are approaching fast).

We need a transportation authority similar to Translink and we need money from the province and feds, both of which seem to have little or no interest.

We have to stop just studying these things to death.

We need to act now.

[amor de cosmos]

We need a transportation authority similar to Translink and we need money from the province and feds, both of which seem to have little or no interest.

The federal govt has committed a practically unlimited amount of money to upgrading/improving the country's infrastructure, including public transit. when paul martin was prime minister everyone thought using the gas tax to fund municipalities was such a good idea, but now the gas tax makes up just something like $14 billion of the $33 billion in the government's dedicated "building canada" infrastructure fund.
http://www.infrastru...i/index_e.shtml

next time you drive past the elk lake/royal oak you'll notice on at least one big billboard that saanich, the BC government & the federal government have all paid for it. not that one single intersection is sufficient. there are other parts of the crd, especially colwood & langford, that need improvements like that also. i think municipalities not on the mainland need to be more vocal about this because the governments seem to be focussed more on their gateway programs, which are more for getting stuff from asia (& elsewhere) far inland. communities on the island shouldn't be forgotten.

[Mike K.]

I'm getting a little tired of the "build LRT to the west shore to alleviate traffic" argument. It's absolutely bunk.

First, lets get the west shore to start using the transit that is already available! If residents won't take a bus now but claim they'll take LRT, do they explect LRT will service their little cul-de-sac and pick them up from their front door? They'll still have to get to the LRT station -- by bus. Fat chance of that happening (look at Surrey where highways are congested to hell and a half-empty Skytrain buzzes alongside them). Auto-oriented suburban communities attract people who don't care about transit but care about fast roads and highways. And I know this is cliche, but those complaining about traffic are -- that's right -- part of the problem.

If anything I say let the suburbs get congested and build better transit in Victoria's core neighbourhoods that already heavily use the transit that is available (like the pass-ups everyday along the 4 and 14 corridors. How often does that occur in Langford?). Once suburbanites wake up to the transit the rest of the city has managed to use and use well we can service their call for a state of the art transit system. Tough luck 'till then.

[UrbanRail]

I'm getting a little tired of the "build LRT to the west shore to alleviate traffic" argument. It's absolutely bunk.

First, lets get the west shore to start using the transit that is already available! If residents won't take a bus now but claim they'll take LRT, do they explect LRT will service their little cul-de-sac and pick them up from their front door? They'll still have to get to the LRT station -- by bus. Fat chance of that happening (look at Surrey where highways are congested to hell and a half-empty Skytrain buzzes alongside them). Auto-oriented suburban communities attract people who don't care about transit but care about fast roads and highways. And I know this is cliche, but those complaining about traffic are -- that's right -- part of the problem.

If anything I say let the suburbs get congested and build better transit in Victoria's core neighbourhoods that already heavily use the transit that is available (like the pass-ups everyday along the 4 and 14 corridors. How often does that occur in Langford?). Once suburbanites wake up to the transit the rest of the city has managed to use and use well we can service their call for a state of the art transit system. Tough luck 'till then.

Fortunately I dont drive, or commute to the westshore and back, I live in Gordon Head. I am a regular transit user and would love to see better transit service in the core. Here are routes that I think should have more funding; #4, 6, 11, 14, 26, 27 and 28 (these are the region's busiest). The routes serving Uvic and Camosun are extremely busy and I agree that especially the 4 and 14 need more attention to eliminate the pass-ups.

There was talk of more double deckers coming next year, 26 I believe was the number. These should be mostly assigned to the core routes. Interestingly BC Transit mentioned that the rapid bus system would use double deckers, not articulated buses. I cant remember where i read that. I am regular user of the 27 and 28, which are busy routes during rush hour.

Unfortunately for the westshore, they wont be getting their fast roads and highways, there is no more room to build them.

Perhaps we should let the westshore sweat a bit.

[Baro]

I couldn't have said it better my self. People who move out there are the reason traffic is so bad and their entire lifestyle is centered around NOT using transit. Their very homes and core infrastructure is nearly impossible to set up effective transit for.

You either build your suburbs planned around transit like England's older suburbs (which are actually pretty high density for north american standard) or you go for the dallas/Calgary model and just build throw-away suburbs with no possibility of transit or vibrancy ever, short of leveling the whole place and starting over on a totally different sort of street plan. We seem to be opting to do the latter.

Stop building new highways and roads and even trains in name of easing suburban traffic, the moment you add the capacity it will have filled up (and filled up years before you even finished it). It's a never ending battle and attempting to solve it this way only increases the problem. it's like attempting to treat cancer by adding blood flow and nutrients to the tumor, it's only going to grow bigger and faster.

Instead, build up our CORE infrastructure in places where it's already working. Add capacity for density in areas with existing services, areas with established neighbourhoods that have traditions of using transit. Make transit in the city efficient and comfortable to the point that it beats out automobiles in every respect, stop blocking densification and allow the market to finally catch up with the insane housing demand downtown and in the city in general, and keep building more of what works where it already works (namely old town style street interaction with high density and a wide mix of uses and economic classes).

Make the city so attractive that only the most die-hard suburbanites go for the langford special style of housing. Make them pay the true cost in terms of traffic congestion, less efficient services, and infrastructure needed to support their lifestyle. The rest of us can enjoy our walks to work, falling obesity's rates, and actual culture.

[amor de cosmos]

Fortunately I dont drive, or commute to the westshore and back, I live in Gordon Head. I am a regular transit user and would love to see better transit service in the core. Here are routes that I think should have more funding; #4, 6, 11, 14, 26, 27 and 28 (these are the region's busiest). The routes serving Uvic and Camosun are extremely busy and I agree that especially the 4 and 14 need more attention to eliminate the pass-ups.

There was talk of more double deckers coming next year, 26 I believe was the number. These should be mostly assigned to the core routes. Interestingly BC Transit mentioned that the rapid bus system would use double deckers, not articulated buses. I cant remember where i read that. I am regular user of the 27 and 28, which are busy routes during rush hour.

Unfortunately for the westshore, they wont be getting their fast roads and highways, there is no more room to build them.

Perhaps we should let the westshore sweat a bit.

I don't think we should make anybody sweat not even if governments weren't doing anything about it. check this out:

VICTORIA, August 29, 2007 – On September 4, Victoria Regional Transit begins offering more service to the Westshore area residents. With five minute frequency during rush hours between Langford/Colwood/View Royal and Downtown Victoria, the Victoria Regional Transit Commission is encouraging everyone to get on board.
“Public transit provides relief for the growing congestion on our roads,” said Mayor Don Amos, chair of the Victoria Regional Transit Commission. “We are increasing service by 8 percent with 14 more buses. We are using 20% biodiesel fuel. Our newest buses have the best leading edge technology for greenhouse gas emission reduction. The cash fare represents good value but the unlimited use of the regional transit system using our monthly bus pass is the best deal in transportation. These are all solid reasons to take transit.”

Service increases include:
* 50 Downtown/Langford: a 60 percent increase in service with 5 minute frequency and fewer stops in peak hours, 10 minute service during the midday and 15 minute service evenings and weekends.
* 52 Wishart/Langford: routing changes and a doubling of frequency for the local weekday service
* 7 UVic/Gonzales: 8 more trips to and from UVic
* 11 Tillicum Mall/UVic: 9 more trips
* Revised routes to Triangle Mountain and Crystal View
* minor increases to commuter service throughout transit

Expanded transit service is made possible through increased local funding, in conjunction with provincial capital and operating funds announced last February. These increased contributions aim to reduce energy consumption and emissions through enhanced transit service. The purchase of the 10 new low-floor buses and 4 community buses was made in part through the federal government’s Public Transit Capital Trust fund.

http://www.bctransit... ... -nr909.pdf

here's more info about that trust fund:
http://www.fin.gc.ca.../06-048_1e.html
http://www.infrastru... ... ex_e.shtml

[UrbanRail]

Well since the discussion is on improving the existing transit services and getting around the core municipalities, heres a link to Portland's new streetcar circulator, which I would assume you are all aware of.

Perhaps this could be one way of improving things. This has imcreased pedestrian and transit use within their downtown core. It has also been responsible for an incredible increase in the density along the streetcar route, both in the established downtown and in the former industrial areas nearby. Now this is something I would support.


http://portlandstreetcar.org/

Aaron

[UrbanRail]

In the wise words of I think Bart Simpson when it comes to solving this traffic problem. "Damed if you do and damed if you dont"

Until then

Aaron

[amor de cosmos]

yeah that's a cool idea. it reminds me of the ride-free zone in seattle, except in seattle it's buses rather than streetcars. isn't toronto the only city in the country that has streetcars?

[Galvanized]

Transit is less significant for sure, but then again:

- On a typical weekday, transit carries 89,000 trips. This accounts for 7.6% of all daily trips in the region.
- Transit accounts for 21% of all trips to and from downtown

source: CRD Transit Strategy Working Paper (August 2003)
http://www.crd.bc.ca... ... forWeb.pdf

2007:

The system will carry over 22 million passengers this year, a five percent increase over last year.
On a typical weekday, transit now boards more than 97,000 passengers.
http://www.bctransit.com/regions/vic/news/newsreleases/pdf/vic-nr815.pdf

[UrbanRail]

yeah that's a cool idea. it reminds me of the ride-free zone in seattle, except in seattle it's buses rather than streetcars. isn't toronto the only city in the country that has streetcars?

Its actually one of 4 cities that has streetcars. Edmonton (Fort Edmonton Park and High Level Bridge), Calgary (Heritage Park shuttle between parking lot and park) and Vancouver, which runs from Vanier Park to Science World, using 2 original interurbans. Vancouver has plans to copy the Portland and Toronto systems. Edmonton and Calgary also use original streetcars that ran in their cities.

Toronto has plans to replace their streetcars with low floor trams built by Siemens.

Here are some links.

Vancouver
http://city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/index.htm

and

Edmonton
http://www.edmonton-radial-railway.ab.ca/

[Mike K.]

Compared to the figure of one million car trips per day from that article, those 22 million annual passengers who ride transit are an astounding minority.

[VicHockeyFan]

I'm getting a little tired of the "build LRT to the west shore to alleviate traffic" argument. It's absolutely bunk.

First, lets get the west shore to start using the transit that is already available! If residents won't take a bus now but claim they'll take LRT, do they explect LRT will service their little cul-de-sac and pick them up from their front door? They'll still have to get to the LRT station -- by bus. Fat chance of that happening (look at Surrey where highways are congested to hell and a half-empty Skytrain buzzes alongside them). Auto-oriented suburban communities attract people who don't care about transit but care about fast roads and highways. And I know this is cliche, but those complaining about traffic are -- that's right -- part of the problem.

If anything I say let the suburbs get congested and build better transit in Victoria's core neighbourhoods that already heavily use the transit that is available (like the pass-ups everyday along the 4 and 14 corridors. How often does that occur in Langford?). Once suburbanites wake up to the transit the rest of the city has managed to use and use well we can service their call for a state of the art transit system. Tough luck 'till then.

Finally a voice of reason.

[UrbanRail]

This discussion of just letting the westshore sprawl and suffer in their traffic got me thinking.

I totally agree on improving and expanding transit in the core municipalities, dont get me wrong there. But is saying screw the westshore and their problems the right thing? Isnt that part of the problem? Its not like there is a concrete wall separating us from them. The actions (or inactions) of the core municipalities is directly and indirectly causing what is happening in Langford and Colwood. Yes I know that the huge increase in traffic is also the result of extemely poor planning. Ignoring the problem doesnt help, whatever happens in the westshore affects us all.

Am I even making sense here? Maybe, maybe not, its hard to put thought into words sometimes.

[gumgum]

I remember reading somewhere that lower mainland officials purposefully eliminated the idea of adding another lane or a second level of lanes on the Lions Gate Bridge specifically to encourage density in the core and to discourage sprawl on the north shore. Whether or not there is a direct correlation in the resulting influx of people into the core and this bridge decision might be yet to be seen, but it certainly makes you think.
After many months of reading these transit related posts, I would have to agree that until we are essentially "full" in the core, we should resist expansion of transit of any kind to the west shore, aside from more busses.
Also, reading the special report in the TC about local traffic has supported my opinion. There seems to be a "the commute really isn't all that bad" theme going on.

[UrbanRail]

on the topic of improving transit in the core. We all know about the future bus lanes down Douglas st. How about similar lanes along Blanshard, Johnston, Pandora, Yates and Fort. The last 4 roads are see high transit use every day, it would make sense to make bus travel more efficient along these corridors. They are essentially 4 lanes one way for most of their routings, so taking out one lane and making it bus only would make sense.

[VicHockeyFan]

how about we be more efficiant about how we do things, work shop, play. Heck, we went three or four days in 1996 where nobody could move and nobody died.