317 replies to this topic

[G-Man]

The Children's museum would be similar to the science centre so I think locals would go.

I don't think Crystal Garden ever had an attendance problem but rather it had a problem with having a profitable price point. Running that place was expensive vastly moreso than a Childrens's museum so it was popular not profitable.

The rest I completely agree. Redevelop the Cridge Park and the flatiron lot and dig up the bowling green put in U/G parking then put the bowling green back on top as it is now.

This block may then be the tourist image of Victoria, not the ledge, not the Empress.

Imagine a bright July weekend the bowling green decked out with players all in white atop a green surface in the background the Aria and the new modern Art Gallery landmark building and to the right a landmark children's museum. Sounds absolutely amazing.

[Koru]

The Children's museum would be similar to the science centre so I think locals would go.

I don't think Crystal Garden ever had an attendance problem but rather it had a problem with having a profitable price point. Running that place was expensive vastly moreso than a Childrens's museum so it was popular not profitable.

The rest I completely agree. Redevelop the Cridge Park and the flatiron lot and dig up the bowling green put in U/G parking then put the bowling green back on top as it is now.

This block may then be the tourist image of Victoria, not the ledge, not the Empress.

Imagine a bright July weekend the bowling green decked out with players all in white atop a green surface in the background the Aria and the new modern Art Gallery landmark building and to the right a landmark children's museum. Sounds absolutely amazing.

Well G-Man is obviously thinking outside the box and I think that this idea has nailed it. It allows for compromise for all parties and keeps everyone "happy" while not destroying a picturesque setting of the core (I'm not sure how many of ya'll drive by the bowling green on a daily basis, I do heading to work and the sight of the bowling green with ARIA in the background is truly a picture perfect moment for a modern and active downtown core. The addition of badly needed parking and some sort of cultural center point, whether it be an art gallery or children's museum would really add. While I will agree with several earlier posts that bowling green is under utilized but with the core being re-vitlized a whole new crowd moving in with some creative programs and marketing down at the CP Bowling Club it could really become something. I am a lawn bowling, I have been nearly 15 years (and I'm in the 20 to 30 something age bracket), competing all across BC with the junior program. A couple of us "younger" bowlers tried a couple years ago to have an evening "beer" league aimed at the 20 to 40 something crowd and we were quite successful, constantly having new drop ins from the surrounding neighbourhood, kids of all ages, tourists and such coming down to learn the game, get out and have some fun. The only reason it stopped was the two of us organizing it both moved out of town, in fact out of province. With the much higher density and all the exposure the lawn bowling green has been getting lately, perhaps its time for us to start something up again. There is no point to get rid of it entirely ( and yes I know there is a club at Beacon Hill, Vic West and so forth but the CP bowling club adds to the theme and "culture" of the core, by getting rid of it we are getting rid of a part of the Old Victorian History this city strives so much to keep.

[aastra]

...the sight of the bowling green with ARIA in the background is truly a picture perfect moment for a modern and active downtown core.

Indeed. Aria's not even finished yet and the city is already dreaming up ways to block it in so nobody can see it.

[Ms. B. Havin]

^^ What guyinthesky said. (btw, I think I posted this months ago already, but as he also just wrote, there are young lawn bowlers all over BC, Victoria included.)

[Lorne Carnes]

The lawn bowling green is within Cridge Park... has been for 85 years. I believe many of you are actually referring to the heavily treed section of the Park behind the clubhouse?

I must admit I'm a little surprised with the negative comments being hurled at this poor neglected spot. Is it the actual space and type of visitors it attracts that posters find so disagreeable... or the notion that it's standing in the way of something more desirable? Are all those mature trees blowing messy leaves onto someone's patio or something? I don't get it.

The Church of Our Lord and it's day care program also share this green space. Should their needs be taken into account? Has anyone asked them?

[G-Man]

Please. A public space is a public space only if it is used.

There is a gorgeous big tree in the empty lot next to View Towers too. Should we keep it?

Why don't you want to save the bowling green?

[Caramia]

Hey now, he does want to save it, he just wants to save both - it's his prerogative, we all pick our issues.

[aastra]

In my ideal world we'd be able to preserve the bowling green and the park. (But I think the park needs a functional/esthetic upgrade.)

Of course, in my ideal world there wouldn't be any need to stick the art gallery on this block at all. In my ideal world there would be a great alternative site for the art gallery right across the street from the bowling green. In my ideal world a condo developer would pay for it.

And the children's museum and whatever else could go into a fine new complex on the flatiron site.

I'm a dreamer.

[Lorne Carnes]

Thanks Caramia... I think I can appreciate where G-Man is coming from.

My questions have not been answered however.

Why is including the treed section of this park a deal breaker for some?

Has anyone actually asked the community directly effected what they want?

If the prime justification for cutting down the trees and digging up the park is to build an underground parkade for the convention centre expansion it really doesn't matter what goes on top.... but I'd suggest that if the local community demand their parkspace back they should prevail.

As historical users who have demonstrated good stewardship of the land I believe the bowling Club would be welcomed back onto that parkspace.

[rayne_k]

As historical users who have demonstrated good stewardship of the land I believe the bowling Club would be welcomed back onto that parkspace.

I'd have no problems if the sport didn't require a closed-off space (I didn't look very hard last time I went by but the bowling green seemed totally locked to anyone, and I expect that is required to maintain it's pristine condition)... but maybe a more active sport.... hmm....tennis anyone? I'm sure alot of the new residents might enjoy having that nearby.

[Lorne Carnes]

I agree... if the City is determined to clear cut why not refurbish that space with more activity? Tennis requires even bigger fences and a basketball court invites late night noise.. but why not bocce or horseshoes? Croquet pitch or a putting green? Children's playground?

Why are people here advocating deleting urban parkspace to put up another building?

[G-Man]

It is a deal breaker for me because that block is completely dead right now and the large influx of residents has made no change. The bowling green is the only good part of it.

No influx of residents is going to make that park used.

[Caramia]

I like the idea of the expansion more than I like the idea of keeping excess park in that area. I could live with either outcome - the proposal city planning put forth, or the status quo. I'm on the fence enough that it would take a pretty significant compromise on both parts to make me feel like it was something I'd actually fight for. For me it isn't about wanting to cut down trees because I have a hate on for them. Any more than for you it is that you hate children and just don't want them to have a museum.

There are a lot of worthy causes out there, and I support some of them. Because of the location, keeping Cridge park isn't one of the ones I support. I lived close to Cridge park for a good portion of my life, and as such I am one of the community. I never thought of it as a park, I thought of it as dead space. If we were talking about St Anns, or part of Beacon Hill I would be up in arms. We aren't, and so I am not. You are asking us to dress in white and come out to city hall to show our solidarity for a cause. But by rolling two causes into one, you automatically exclude those who support one cause but not the other.

It's like I said to G-Man, we all pick our issues. I bet there is something I feel passionately about you that you think is kind of meh.

[gumgum]

^Well said.

[Baro]

One only needs to cross a street or walk a couple blocks in practically any direction to see the difference between positive green space and dead space.

The purpose of a downtown is to be a high-use area. Density and closeness, activity and life, that's what a downtown is about. You can have a dense park just as you can have a a dense office building, it's a matter of intensity of use. There is pretty much 0 use of this little 'park' therefor it can not justify being downtown. It serves no purpose in its current state and there is not enough demand for what it provides to justify its existence, it also commits the greatest crime of all in a city: wasting land.

[gumgum]

The blue is all the public spaces in the area and red is the bowling green.

There is a lot of public space in this area. Cridge Park is redundant. The public tells us this everyday - no one ever uses it other than the odd drug addict or homeless person. It's time to put the space to better use.

[Nparker]

There is a lot of public space in this area. Cridge Park is redundant. The public tells us this everyday - no one ever uses it other than the odd drug addict or homeless person. It's time to put the space to better use.

My thoughts exactly.

[Lorne Carnes]

Thanks again Carmine... I think you've cleared this up quite a bit for me.

Would a sincere appeal from the local community, including the Church of our Lord, to retain this as active park space sway you at all? Would the comparative cost to the taxpayer of a refurbished park vs civic building be a factor in gaining your support?

To Gum Gum.... I'm not nearly as adept at posting graphics as you. Would it be possible to fire off another map with just active park spaces highlighted? The Parks Board does not issue group permits for the Empress Hotel lawns.

Also, could you clarify who the 'us' are in your statement? Are you referring to this discussion forum or another organization, such as a community association?

[G-Man]

I think the "us" is the citizenry of Victoria there.

I am part of the community, so no, perhaps others might be.

I like the quirkyness of the lawn bowling green and would love to see it saved.

[gumgum]

Thanks again Carmine... I think you've cleared this up quite a bit for me.

Would a sincere appeal from the local community, including the Church of our Lord, to retain this as active park space sway you at all? Would the comparative cost to the taxpayer of a refurbished park vs civic building be a factor in gaining your support?

To Gum Gum.... I'm not nearly as adept at posting graphics as you. Would it be possible to fire off another map with just active park spaces highlighted? The Parks Board does not issue group permits for the Empress Hotel lawns.

Also, could you clarify who the 'us' are in your statement? Are you referring to this discussion forum or another organization, such as a community association?

When I say "us" I implied the public that look at Cridge Park as they pass by. You have to agree it is barely used for leisure unless you include a bag of crack and a spoonful of heroin a leisure activity.

When I composed that map months ago, it was for something slightly different, but I think it illustrates a point. I mean, there are plenty of public spaces for people to enjoy in the area, even if the population trippled in that area. But I should have said that the maps mark out official and non-official public spaces. The lines between a public spaces and parks can be blurred sometimes. But the culmination of all of these spaces, minus Cridge Park, still fullfill our needs for what we require, and then some.
I would be happy to compose a new map, but it all I would do is remove the Empress land from the collection, as it is private land. (I, once again, included it because it is an unofficial public space.) But without it, there is still a multitude of choices of official public spaces in the area.
Besides, non of this changes the fact that Cridge never used.