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Evolution of Victoria's downtown drug dealing hotspots


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#21 Rorschach

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 10:24 AM

What's really sad is that our courtrooms are not packed with cases or have any backlogs of cases waiting for a courtroom. You can just walk in and look at the calendar of cases and it's literally a handfull, maybe one or two a day - maybe none. You'd think with all the crime that the courts would be packed with defendants, laywers and multiple trials in progress or waiting -- but go take a look. It's pretty quiet there.

If you decide you want to sit in on proceedings just to see and hear what is happening, you'll be incredibly bored and shocked. Not surprisingly, the defences raised or the issues in dispute nearly universally focus on some right of the defendant being violated by the police. It's literally never on guilt or innocence -- it's always whether or not the police officer violated some bizarre interpretation of their charter rights. I heard one lawyer go on and on, pouring over line by line of an accused's confession saying it was coerced because the officer was impolite and authorative. Hours of this over and over. The guy had confessed to a theft, but they were taking up court time --hours and hours arguing the same point over and over. It's sick.

Seriously, the courts are under-utilized and need some streamlining. And as everyone in Victoria knows by now there has to be some actual punishment for crime. When you are arrested over a hundred times and released again and again with the same toothless conditions of release you'd think someone would get a clue and do something. It's beyond outrageous.

Our system in place now comes from a time where a crime was a very rare thing, not to be taken lightly and a trial or hearing in court was a special event demanding the utmost care to prevent an innocent person from being punished. It's as if we have been completely unaware of the reality of the world out there and have not changed a thing in 150 years.

What can be done? Just sit in on it sometime. It's unbelievable.

#22 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 01:11 PM

I can't remember which free newspaper this was in (it was one of the Black Press papers, although not Monday, haha), but Bruce Carter (Chamber CEO) had a recent op-ed about crime and how it's hurting businesses, ...except for the drug dealers. This is because BC has the laxest laws (and track record in the courts) for arresting / convicting / punishing drug dealers. The source for the statistics he referenced EXCLUDED marijuana issues. This referred only to harder drugs (cocaine, heroin, etc.).

So while businesses and residents are constantly (yes) having their premises broken into or their possessions stolen by addicts looking to turn anything into cash for buying drugs, and while this is hurting legitimate businesses here, illegal businesses are thriving because BC is the Best Place on Earth to set up a drug-related racket.

(I'm paraphrasing Carter. ^ )

Oh, and this goes hand-in-hand with Victoria's rather embarrassing crime ranking (top ten for B&Es, property crime).
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#23 Rorschach

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 01:48 PM

Also take into account that "regular" citizens have no problem giving $20 to a thief for that $2000 Blaupunkt torn from the dashboard of someone else's new car. If people weren't buying, people would not be stealing.

What we need is a good stolen property fence sting operation. Some police set up an electronic fix-it repair shop and buy back the stuff cheap all the while taking high-resolution video of the people selling stolen property. Maybe pay a little more than the run of the mill chop shop to generate business.

After a while, the most prolific thieves will be identified and they'll recover more stolen property than by random success as occurs otherwise. Such a sting will generate evidence so compelling, even Victoira's prosecutors will deign to devote court resources to putting the prolific thieves and drug addicts in jail for a while.

But then of course we have to sit back and listen to the moaning about how these poor drug addicts need our help, compassion, and forgiveness.

You get the law enforcement you demand and the criminals you deserve.

#24 Caramia

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 02:10 PM

Rorschach, you can separate drug addicts needing help compassion and forgiveness from criminals needing punishment. If you took another look at the attitudes of many of those who advocate for harm reduction you'd find that most of them agree that part of help, compassion, and respect includes holding people accountable for their actions.

I knew a guy who got addicted to coke and stole from his family, friends and eventually random strangers. I knew another guy who got addicted to coke and never stole anything. Your posts often sound like the two should be treated without distinction. It may not be what you mean, but it is how it comes across - and it weakens your argument.

Re: Your point about regular citizens buying stolen goods, I wholeheartedly agree.

#25 Rorschach

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:36 PM

There is not a single addict in the criminal justice system that doesn't play the drug-addict, sympathy, compassion card. After more than 100 arrests, it just makes sense to view such pleas for what they are. These guys depend on manipulating others and the system to survive. How else can you explain how judge 99 makes the same decision as judge 100 in doling out "compassion" to the criminal recidivist offender ruining our society. Sometimes a long stint in prison can be quite theraputic and compassionate. Rights must be balanced. The public at large has a right to be free from the repeated victimization which resluts from an endless mindless cycle of "compassion" from the judge's bench. What about compassion for the regular honest guy?

#26 KublaKhan

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 01:00 PM

There is not a single addict in the criminal justice system that doesn't play the drug-addict, sympathy, compassion card. After more than 100 arrests, it just makes sense to view such pleas for what they are. These guys depend on manipulating others and the system to survive. How else can you explain how judge 99 makes the same decision as judge 100 in doling out "compassion" to the criminal recidivist offender ruining our society. Sometimes a long stint in prison can be quite theraputic and compassionate. Rights must be balanced. The public at large has a right to be free from the repeated victimization which resluts from an endless mindless cycle of "compassion" from the judge's bench. What about compassion for the regular honest guy?


That and the guy having to explain to his 4 year old son that the person accosting him isn't a friend, and that 'no...daddy doesn't want to buy anything from him.'

#27 Caramia

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:40 PM

I agree - sometimes jail is the best place for someone who is addicted AND doing crime. It can be therapeutic, remediative, or just keep them alive and out of society's hair until the destructive behaviour is done with. I'm not arguing against that at all. In fact, I'm a big believer in the "make amends" part of the 12 step program... which I think SHOULD include serving time or community hours or whatever for whatever crimes you committed as an addict.

HOWEVER - not every junky is a criminal, and criminality alone doesn't mean that compassion should be scorned and put down, or that people trying to deal with the health and mental health aspects of addiction need to be constantly belittled. Those aspects of addiction are also very real and trying to simplify it all into a "addicts should be locked up because they are all criminals" perspective is trite at best. So too, jumping to the assumption that everyone who has compassion for addicts is somehow mentally deranged is unfair. It would be the same as if I were to continually post that everyone who favours a hard line on crime is just poor bashing - a gross oversimplification, and a disservice to my argument.

#28 jdsony

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 11:42 AM

It's really a tough one. On the one hand I've been burned by property crime a few times and basically the cops "Don't have enough resources" do go after the criminals even when they have video evidence of the guy using a credit card to buy lotto & cigs. When there are multiple break ins in a single rural area you can bet that it's one person.

On the other hand the american prison system is overloaded and most are in there because of drug related offenses. This in itself causes a whole host of other issues. I do think they should be much more strict with repeat offenders because as it stands now there is little to deter these criminals.

#29 Rob Randall

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 09:03 PM

The VEFRA building, NE corner of Quadra and Pandora is the new hotspot.

The VicPD will be setting up a small presence in an office on this site. It will not be a community police station--it is merely a place where the police can catch up on their paperwork rather than doing it down at the police station. This way, there can be a police presence on this problematic corner without having to spend extra resources.

#30 jklymak

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 09:06 PM

^ That is great news. I hope it helps things there.

#31 gumgum

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 09:26 PM

Douglas at Pandora is still a problem. I see it all the time.

#32 G-Man

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 08:07 AM

Douglas and Yates is worse IMO but yes the VEFRA building up Pandora to McDonald's is the worst. This is mostly because of the many vacant lots and empty storefronts along here.

#33 sebberry

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 06:17 PM

Up and down Pandora would be a good place for jaywalking enforcement.. jaywalkers AND drugdealers.. two birds, one stone :P

#34 martini

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 08:01 PM

Yup, Pandora and Douglas is where my son was asked if he wanted to buy some crack.

#35 maniac78

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 09:19 PM

I think we should just do nothing. I like keeping downtown as crappy as possible because it's so easy to avoid. Let the homeless, freaks and druggies have downtown. We'll keep the rest.

#36 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 09:55 PM

Is Victoria's hate-on for downtown normal?
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#37 martini

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 10:06 PM

Is Victoria's hate-on for downtown normal?


I don't know. There seems to be a Victorian syndrome that bad things don't happen here like other cities. I hear that all the time. "But this is Victoria...bla bla bla"
So I think there tends to be a fear of downtown whether real or imagined.
I don't have an issue being downtown myself or with my kids. That's urban reality.
It's the same with complaints about parking downtown too. Take the bus then!
Or walk. I dunno...JMHO

But I don't underestimate our homeless community or what downtown retailers face on a daily/nightly basis. We do have issues that need to be addressed.

#38 yodsaker

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:53 PM

It's like punching a balloon full of water. Increase the police presence and they go elsewhere and we can't put cops on every corner. Nor would I want to live in a society with cops on every corner even if it was affordable.

#39 aastra

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 02:33 PM

...because it's so easy to avoid.


If that's the case then maybe we should relocate all of the drug problems to the west comms?

#40 davek

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 05:45 PM

Libertarians advocate decriminalizing the buying, selling, and use of drugs amongst adults.

Drug users would become no more of a problem than alcohol users are now, and those that committed criminal acts could be dealt with on the basis of their crimes. Drug quality would improve as legitimate retailers sought quality product from wholesalers, bringing an end to users dying from adulterated intoxicants. After all, where's the profit in killing your customers? Police would be more free to pursue rapists, murderers, and thieves, as they would no longer have to waste time punishing people who are just trying to feel good (or normal!). The violence that surrounds the drug trade would evaporate.

It was good to end prohibition on alcohol, and it would be good to end drug prohibition, too.

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