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Victoria's ghosts


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#41 Caramia

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:21 PM

There are ghosts. What remains to be shown is if they are subjective, or objective.

#42 Baro

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:40 PM

Aastra you seem to be taking this a little personally and making some rather defensive arguments, let's just have a friendly conversation on this. I'm really not sure the point you're making with buildings and such. I'm just trying to determine why you say you believe in ghosts, what evidence has convinced you that they exist? The height of existing buildings in victoria isn't an issue in which there is any scientific doubt or contention, we both know this and it's dishonest to come up with silly comparisons like that. Someone may be mistaken in regard to the heights of our buildings out of ignorance, but it's extremely easy to rectify, so perhaps I'm ignorant on some ghost related evidence and you could rectify my current provisional conclusions.

I'm open to any ghost related evidence, and I'm sure the world would be extremely excited to know what you know. It would rock our very idea of how the universe works to its very core, we'd have to re-think almost all our theories. I'm not trying to play semantic word games or make ridiculous comparisons, please don't thrash about like you're under personal attack. I'm genuinely interested in what you believe about ghosts and what evidence/experiences have lead you to believe such creatures exist.

#43 G-Man

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:27 PM

I believe Aastra said he didn't himself believe in ghosts. His argument is with everyone elses flimsy arguments.

#44 gumgum

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:44 PM

I tend to agree with aastra's point. If the "there's no compelling evidence" argument was as weighty as some would think, then we would have to assume that no extra-terrestrials exist either. And as many know, that's pretty much a mathematical impossibility.

#45 KublaKhan

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 07:21 PM

I'm reminded of the Christmas I worked at the Banff Springs Hotel, back when I was a lad full of promise and vim and vigor and lots of bravado.

I was assigned the task of sorting through boxes and boxes and boxes of seasonal ornaments high up in an attic that overlooked the hotel grounds. It was a spectacular view, and the landscape was blanketed in new snow, and a sliver of moon cut the darkness like a scythe.

Right then. There I was, boxes, party hats and reindeer antlers made of velvet. Noise makers. Those little fake presents you tie to Christmas Tree branches that the cat always tries to tear down before knocking the tree over. It was a huge task, and it was a huge hotel, and I was alone in a vast poorly lit space at the top of a very old hotel.

I was alone for hours, and the place was quiet and still. I had the distinct impression that someone was standing off in a corner...that 'being watched' feeling...but when I turned to look, sure enough I was alone. This went on for some time. I called out "Hello?" and got nothing. I walked around the attic and inspected and poked and kicked and maybe I saw some mouse shit, but that was pretty much it as far as signs of life went.

I felt a chilling draft swirl around my face, as though someone had opened a door quickly, and I heard what I thought were footsteps.

It wasn't a threatening feeling, but it was certainly...um, uplifting. Heightened, alert, responsive. I told my supervisor about it and he wasn't surprised. Apparently, that attic was a favoured spot for some old gent who hung around long after he died. Guests would report being greeted by an elderly gentleman in vintage costume who would escort them to their rooms. It's one of the hotel's more popular ghost stories.

Believe it or not...

#46 aastra

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 07:36 PM

Did your wife lock you in the pantry in the basement shortly after that?

#47 aastra

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 07:39 PM

I'm really not sure the point you're making with buildings and such.

I get it so I'll drop it. But you don't ever need to worry about me being offended. I don't get offended. I just exchange ideas.

The height of existing buildings in victoria isn't an issue in which there is any scientific doubt or contention...

Say what? I made it my personal mission over the past eight years to challenge the prevailing consensus that there aren't any highrises in Victoria because in fact there are plenty. Is the mission accomplished? Can I finally rest?

I'm not trying to play semantic word games or make ridiculous comparisons, please don't thrash about like you're under personal attack.

I must have missed something. You could firebomb my house as a counterargument and I still wouldn't take any offense.

I don't care about personalities. I'm surprised that hasn't come through over the years. I don't have a political bone in my body. All I care about is ideas. Forget the who; I'm interested in the what and why.

#48 amor de cosmos

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:05 PM

does anybody have any stories about ghosts in Victoria? :confused:

#49 aastra

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:11 PM

I believe somebody claims to have seen Isabella Ross on Dallas Road fairly recently.

#50 aastra

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:12 PM

http://www.canada.co...87f4869&k=66650

#51 Baro

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:17 PM

G-Man (g-man of course being the man named gumgum)

in regard to life in the universe. We don't have any direct evidence of any life out there, but our sample is far too small to really draw any conclusions. But we have our entire civilization's worth of science in biology, chemistry, astronomy that can make good guesses. We exist and managed to spring up on this rock, so we could make an educated guess that if such conditions existed elsewhere perhaps a similar event could happen. That's entirely reasonable and scientific, based on what we know. We can, based on what we know, entertain some actual theories grounded in science. We won't know for sure till we get out there but the existence of life elsewhere doesn't violate any known theories. For a long time we assumed other star systems had planets since ours did but we didn't really know for sure how common planets are. Now that we've scoped out many of our neighbours and found tons of huge planets we've proven that theory, but it was a theory to prove, and it was a theory based on countless other theories that have stood the rigors of science. Now if someone said "no way, I think other star systems are totally full of zorts!" that would be another story. What's a zort we'd ask! "well, they're invisible so we'll never be able to detect them, but as we all know if you ever catch one it will grant a wish!". This, in my mind, and most people's would sound ridiculous. Planets existing in other star systems is reasonable, as planets exist in our star system and there's no theory saying they couldn't. One could say "well , untill we visit those star systems it's close minded to say they're more likely full of planets rather than zorts!". Planets are proven and belong to a huge interconnected web of scientific theories, zorts, and their wish-granting abilities are way out there in 'left field' with nothing established to even sugest at their existance. In my view, and understanding on current scientific thought, is that like zorts, not only is there no evidence for ghosts, there's no evidence or even theories connected to the countless of other issues regarding ghosts. We're not talking about aliens visiting us regularily, or bigfoot, or fake moon landings, which are all although extremely unlikely at least are based within our massive network of established theories (or at least don't outright break any), but with ghosts we're talking about the existance of a whole new type of matter or energy, or some sort of new dimension, something that would effect every science out there and pretty much force us to re-write pretty much everything we know about the universe. Now that's possible, it's always possible some new theory will come and turn out to be true that smashes existing wisdom and I'm open to that.

But for now, until there's some evidence put forward, or even an organized theory of some sort I'm going to have to unfortunately group ghosts along with Korean fan-death, Nigerian penis-theft wizards, and US creationism. All things that even large groups will strongly believe, but seem unlikely and even ridiculous or downright imposible when looked at with any reasonable scrutiny. If I'm not being reasonable in my thinking on ghosts or any of the above please set me straight, as being absolutely open minded and reasonable is something important to me.

#52 G-Man

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:22 PM

I can only assume you saw a ghost as I didn't mention extra-terrestials.

#53 amor de cosmos

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:33 PM

I believe somebody claims to have seen Isabella Ross on Dallas Road fairly recently.


that's enough out of you :rolleyes:

#54 Mike K.

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 10:51 PM

It would appear that our friend Kubla was trying to tell us that his sixth sense was acting up.

Too bad for him science still hasn't come around to proving its existence, so he was clearly experiencing drug or alcohol induced paranoia up there in that attic. That's the only logical explanation because science would have proven long ago that the sixth sense exists if indeed it does exist.

So the next time anyone gets a hunch about something, or a strange feeling, perhaps even a gut instinct, remember to lay off the pills.


/sarcasm

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#55 Rorschach

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 08:30 AM

It would appear that our friend Kubla was trying to tell us that his sixth sense was acting up.


I thought he was making a reference to Teri Hatcher's breasts. No need to complicate things with speculation.

#56 KublaKhan

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 09:53 AM

I thought he was making a reference to Teri Hatcher's breasts. No need to complicate things with speculation.


So long as we're speculating, can I assume (speculate) that you've been into the gin (again?)? I ask because a) I had to Google this 'Teri Hatcher' person as I had no idea who this person was (is), and b) as I have no familiarity with said person, I could not (cannot) speculate as to the condition/position of her breasts.

As for my elevated sixth sense, and specifically the scientific claim (speculation) that no such thing exists, I am further reminded of a story about a bunch of crazy, nutty barnyard animals that all went into a crazy, nutty panic a few hours before an earthquake. Or, similarly, the dog story concerning some strange and erratic behaviour immediately before another earthquake. This tremor half way around the world.

I know this is a matter of apples/oranges, but if these stupid, unintelligent, unscientific animals can perceive slight fluctuations in geomagnetic/geological activity hours or days in advance of the actual event, is it not possible that other, slightly more advanced (intellectually, at least) animals can similarly perceive fluctuations of spirit energy...and now I'm beginning to sound like one of those crazy 'ghost hunters'...or whatever ethereal charge/energy powers life.

If energy can neither be created or destroyed...something I remember hearing as a school-aged youngster...my main question concerning this discussion is 'where does this energy go after death?'

#57 G-Man

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 10:03 AM

She is the actor playing the character in Seinfeld that said those lines.

#58 aastra

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 10:15 AM

...if these stupid, unintelligent, unscientific animals can perceive slight fluctuations in geomagnetic/geological activity hours or days in advance of the actual event, is it not possible that other, slightly more advanced (intellectually, at least) animals can similarly perceive fluctuations of spirit energy...


Suuuuure...and whales can use their magic hypnotic powers to paralyze fish, thus turning them into an easy meal. Riiiiiiight...

I can't do it, so therefore it's impossible. There's no such thing as black magic.

The topic of earthquake detection/prediction provides another good example of how the unknown can get politicized. The scientific community in Asia has always tended to be much more open-minded about earthquake prediction as compared to the folks over here.

http://www.sciencema...ll/276/5312/526

#59 KublaKhan

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 10:55 AM

Suuuuure...and whales can use their magic hypnotic powers to paralyze fish, thus turning them into an easy meal. Riiiiiiight...



If that were possible, I suspect these whales would use their magical powers to stun/paralyze those annoying Whale Watching people. It would be the equivalent of a Happy Meal, all neatly packaged in non-biodegradable containers that remain visible for years after consumption.

Oh...what a world it would be if it were only so...

#60 aastra

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 11:18 AM

I'm just making the point that the ability of some whales to use sonic pulses as tools/weapons will probably seem perfectly acceptable to us when you describe the ability as I just did (sonic pulses). But when you label those abilities as magic hypnotic paralyzing powers, they don't seem quite so credible. Semantics lead us astray. Especially so when we're discussing development issues in Victoria.

...but with ghosts we're talking about the existance of a whole new type of matter or energy, or some sort of new dimension, something that would effect every science out there and pretty much force us to re-write pretty much everything we know about the universe. Now that's possible, it's always possible some new theory will come and turn out to be true that smashes existing wisdom and I'm open to that.


I know I said I would drop it but I just have to make one more point because it's clear that some people weren't getting what I was trying to say. The basic point I was making was that "ghosts" could be anything, including simply an unknown combination/manifestation of ordinary (well understood) phenomena. To begin your investigation you don't actually need to re-write anything, you just need to investigate. We can't gain knowledge if we reject everything that doesn't conform to our particular world view(s).

The term "ghost" is merely a label that we slap onto a gigantic range of perplexing experiences. It doesn't follow that because all of the experiences are perplexing that they therefore must have a common origin or source. One disembodied voice might be RF picked up by a plate in an observer's head. Another ghostly vision might be the sun's rays playing on low mist or the Pepper's Ghost illusion. As KublaKhan posits, maybe human beings (or some human beings) are able to perceive certain stimuli without being able to fully comprehend those stimuli. A simple example: little kids tend to be able to hear frequencies that older folks can't hear. Another example: fish and birds and other animals can migrate over tremendous distances in a manner that tends to impress human beings. Do the fish and birds understand their own ability in this regard?

More examples: some people are highly tuned to the emotional states of the people around them; some people are highly tuned to their spatial surroundings. How did that guy know there was a car about to hit him from behind? Does he even know how he knew? He jumped out of the way just in time. Magic! Or maybe not.

Might some ghosts be disembodied spirits? Maybe. Contrary to what some people are claiming on this thread, no human being is an authority on the matter. If somebody chooses to believe or not believe in something unproven, that's their business. Beliefs are not facts.

Personally, I will put experiences and observations above beliefs every time. But that's just me. If a guy gets convicted for murder and yet I know he didn't do it because I was there and I saw the murder happen, it will matter squat to me if everybody who watches the TV news that night ends up believing that the innocent man was the killer.

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