1311 replies to this topic

[JohnN]

As a group it is a bit bigger with wider support than the previous incarnation

"Bev Highton, chairman of the Association of Douglas Street Businesses, said time-limited bus lanes during rush hours could make sense, but he wants to see the details - such as whether they would be busonly or high-occupancy-vehicle lanes as well - before endorsing the idea."

and

LRT: Fortin said bus-only corridors might help forestall the need for that work."If it solves our problem by putting some paint on the ground in this dedicated lane, then perfect," Fortin said. "If it delays our need to invest in Light Rapid Transit for another 10 or 15 years, that's good, too."

From:
One-year target for bus-only lanes on Douglas Street

[Mike K.]

Calgary's 8.2km new LRT line ended up costing $1.5 billion ...$800 million over budget, and another $60 million may still be added to the price tag as a result of land disputes.

The cost of Calgary’s new LRT should act as a warning to others
By Jesse Kline, National Post
http://fullcomment.n...ning-to-others/

...There’s no question that the rapidly growing Western city was due for an upgrade to its rail network. But according to Steve Lafleur, a policy analyst at the Frontier Centre for Public Policy, the project was supposed to cost taxpayers $700-million, but came in at just under $1.5-billion.

That means that the 8.2 km of new track cost $195-million per kilometre. With an expected ridership of 35,000 per day, that’s $42,857 per passenger — enough to buy them each a shiny new car. Over its lifetime, the new line will last much longer and service many more people than a fleet of new cars, but the statistic gives a sense of just how much the project ended up costing.

In comparison, Vancouver’s Canada Line, which was built for the 2010 Olympics and runs between downtown and the airport, cost just over $2-billion for 19.2 km of subway and elevated track. How the city of Calgary could have done such a horrendous job with the original budget estimates and provided taxpayers with so little value for their hard-earned money relative to other large infrastructure projects is a question all Calgarians should be asking.

[aastra]

A better question is how did the Richmond line cost "just over $2-billion for 19.2 km of subway and elevated track"? I'd be a huge proponent of this whole thing if Greater Victoria could get 10 km of subway and elevated track for $1 billion.

I feel like this has already come up in this thread but I don't know if anybody ever provided an answer.

[bluefox]

That means that the 8.2 km of new track cost $195-million per kilometre. With an expected ridership of 35,000 per day, that’s $42,857 per passenger — enough to buy them each a shiny new car.

Contradiction - you can't measure ridership per day and then break it down as if those passengers are only going to use the line one single time in their whole lives. Nonsensical sensationalism from the NP... as usual.

[Mike K.]

Contradiction - you can't measure ridership per day and then break it down as if those passengers are only going to use the line one single time in their whole lives. Nonsensical sensationalism from the NP... as usual.

The majority of the 35,000 daily riders will ride the train on a daily basis, so the breakdown per passenger makes sense.

[Urbanistco]

Very complex issue. The Regional Growth Strategy in 2003 by the CRD was referenced by local municipal OCP Context Statements as set out in legislation. Many subsequent planning undertaken by the local governments (guided by the RGS) was based on a committment by the Provincial Government to provide funding for the LRT. When that never happened, BC Transit was expected to fill in the gap with existing service/infrastructure.

[PulpVictor]

Contradiction - you can't measure ridership per day and then break it down as if those passengers are only going to use the line one single time in their whole lives. Nonsensical sensationalism from the NP... as usual.

65% of commuters use a private vehicle
7% car pool
10% use public transit
10% walk
6% bike

Only 27% of workers work and live in the same municipality
40,300 people commute daily into Victoria.

Is there research suggesting that building a light rail system will convert that 65% of commuters in private vehicles into LRT users?

[leslie64]

Being born here I am always excited by projects such as an LRT system coming to Victoria, however I don't think Victoria's population warrants an LRT at this time. Though something has to be done to improve those areas where traffic is a nightmare. As was mentioned, how many people would actually use an LRT here?

[Hotel Mike]

As was mentioned, how many people would actually use an LRT here?

And the plans being discussed means there will be virtually no benefit to people who live in Victoria. If an LRT ran out to the airport and ferry terminal, lots and lots of people would use it.

[G-Man]

^ Exactly. Built in ridership. The idea that we need to build this to the Westshore first just amazes me, especially when we have the E&N just sitting their rusting.

In my own world I would see a phased approach as such:

1. E&N up and running from Duncan to Vic for commuters combined with frequent limited stop bus between Downtown and Uptown (say 6-8 stops) running every 15 minutes during the day.
2. 10 years out - some form of RT between dt and uptown with a massive transit loop at Uptown and add some form of Rapid bus to UVic, Ferries and Airport
3. 15-20 years out add an RT line to UVic
4. 25 years RT out to Ferries and Airport

No westshore because commuter train could have been made more frequent if needed during day.

[jonny]

^ Exactly. Built in ridership. The idea that we need to build this to the Westshore first just amazes me, especially when we have the E&N just sitting their rusting.

In my own world I would see a phased approach as such:

1. E&N up and running from Duncan to Vic for commuters combined with frequent limited stop bus between Downtown and Uptown (say 6-8 stops) running every 15 minutes during the day.
2. 10 years out - some form of RT between dt and uptown with a massive transit loop at Uptown and add some form of Rapid bus to UVic, Ferries and Airport
3. 15-20 years out add an RT line to UVic
4. 25 years RT out to Ferries and Airport

No westshore because commuter train could have been made more frequent if needed during day.

I agree.

While I am not convinced that Victoria needs to spend a massive amount of money on light rail infrastructure (how many busses could you buy for $1B and how many bus drivers could you pay for how long?), if I was going to design an LRT system, there would be two lines. The first would go up Douglas from downtown to Uptown, and the second would go from Uptown to UVic.

Using the E&N corridor to connect the Westshore with (almost) downtown is such a no brainer. We already have the line, the cars and even some of the stations. I think it would be quite a pleasant way to come into work. Set up a couple of Park & Rides and it could be a beautiful service.

[UrbanRail]

^ Exactly. Built in ridership. The idea that we need to build this to the Westshore first just amazes me, especially when we have the E&N just sitting their rusting.

In my own world I would see a phased approach as such:

1. E&N up and running from Duncan to Vic for commuters combined with frequent limited stop bus between Downtown and Uptown (say 6-8 stops) running every 15 minutes during the day.
2. 10 years out - some form of RT between dt and uptown with a massive transit loop at Uptown and add some form of Rapid bus to UVic, Ferries and Airport
3. 15-20 years out add an RT line to UVic
4. 25 years RT out to Ferries and Airport

No westshore because commuter train could have been made more frequent if needed during day.

We will get the E&N up and running for commuter rail or a form of it anyway.

[Mike K.]

Can you remind us what the latest ETA is for E&N commuter rail service?

[Danma]

I agree.

Using the E&N corridor to connect the Westshore with (almost) downtown is such a no brainer. We already have the line, the cars and even some of the stations. I think it would be quite a pleasant way to come into work. Set up a couple of Park & Rides and it could be a beautiful service.

I agree that it seems like a no brainer but is it ever actually going to happen? In my (admittedly short) time living in the west shore, I hear occasional hand waving and grumbles but progress seems to be nonexistent. Is it something that realistically will ever happen or is smoke being blown up our collective butts?

[UrbanRail]

Can you remind us what the latest ETA is for E&N commuter rail service?

I have been hearing of October as being when passenger service will return or some form of it anyway.

[UrbanRail]

Remember this study.

It includes the 1996 LRT study and the 1992/93 Downtown Streetcar Study.

http://www.transitbc.../vic-ssr647.pdf

[renthefinn]

Remember this study.

It includes the 1996 LRT study and the 1992/93 Downtown Streetcar Study.

http://www.transitbc.../vic-ssr647.pdf

I remember that study, I went to BC Transit and requested a copy of the full study back in about 2002 as they didn't have it on there website yet. Thanks for the reposting, I don't know where my hard copy has gotten to...

[Mike K.]

Bernard has argued that bus service is a far better option over forcing transit riders to transfer onto a train along a central corridor (Douglas Street) that then moves riders into the downtown core.

The 1991-1996 studies envisioned bus service as a far better option for transit riders:

Esquimalt/Victoria: Will have only nominal effect on development as bus service can offer better direct access to downtown employment centres.

[leslie64]

I agree, Victoria is unique, we study the sh*t out of things, then develop hundreds of committees, sub-committees, sub-sub committees, then do the same studies 12 thousand times, listen to whinning citizens that have nothing better to do than to complain, there is too much talk and not much do. Plus with 13 councils refusing to work together on a proper regional transportation plan. And of course there is the same boring excuse that it will never happen or work here. We should rename the city to CAVE (Citizens Agains Virtually Everything)

So yeah we are unique. We should have a highway sign that says " Welcome To Victoria The Study Capital of Canada".

But of course that's what makes us so special.

I couldn't agree with this statement more! (CAVE (Citizens Agains Virtually Everything) I was born here in Victoria and every time someone wants to build something here all the complainers come out in force. I am amazed that anything gets done here. Look at the breakwater project, all the city wanted to do is make it a little safer for everyone to use and look at all the arguments that started over that! And of course we have the JSB debate, but let's not go there!! cheers!

[leslie64]

A committee on why we study things too much in this region. LOL, I love it!

Yes but then we'll have to start another committee to study your committee and so on and so on....