75 replies to this topic

[mat]

That would mean having a media worthy of the name to do said local reporting. Canwest <kof, kof>...

<crickets chirping>

Yep - totally agreed. and it is "kof kof" (Orwellian connections aside) - it's a mad media dash to nothing.

So how do we get local reporting?

[G-Man]

Isn't that what we are doing?

[Sue Woods]

Yep - totally agreed. and it is "kof kof" (Orwellian connections aside) - it's a mad media dash to nothing.

So how do we get local reporting?

For sure many VV folks are doing a great job of presenting issues and generating opinion/discussion that I see a few days later showing up in the letters-to-the-editor.

One thing that I am waiting for is a follow-up news story about tightening up the nomination process. It was raised by Geoff Young a few weeks - but alas in the same piece Madoff and Chandler shot it down -well not directly - but in the way they "framed" it. Chandler: a higher deposit fee would be unfair to hopeful candidates. Madoff: we need a citizen's commitee to look into all this (aka, forget about it)

So unless someone puts pressure on, we'll have a repeat in 2011. I heard more the once, while a candidate, that incumbants love a crowd of new candidates - the more running - the higher the odds of them getting back in due to confusion and name recognition (and I will add the lack of real debating time - and media coverage). If the nomination process is not tightened up, there will no percentage in anyone bothering to run against them next time. Anyway, thats a motion I'm waiting to see tabled soon.

[mat]

Isn't that what we are doing?

IMOH yes - but VV is at best citizen journalism, all volunteer; a somewhat ad hoc moderator interaction, and certainly no editorial policy.

[Rob Randall]

Keith Vass covers just about every Council meeting for the Vic News. Bill Cleverly or someone from the Times Colonist is usually there as well. You can count on Frank Stanford of C-FAX and Lisa Cordasco of CBC to attend meetings where notable items are on the agenda. A-Channel gets a lot of videotape followed by CHEK.

[Sue Woods]

IMOH yes - but VV is at best citizen journalism, all volunteer; a somewhat ad hoc moderator interaction, and certainly no editorial policy.

Citizen journalism is nothing to sneeze at - and quickly replacing newspapers as a valid source of information.

Did you know - the ability for readers to remark upon and contribute to blog discussions came about by accident when a reporter used the internet to expose a US Attorney scandal. His intent was to offer his readers transparency, so that his strong viewpoint would be distinguishable from the facts that he presented. However, he found that the enormous response to his work stimulated readers to offer up valuable information not always available to traditional media.

While the new media survives by virtue of parasitical relationships with the old media, this is changing as the social and business model of the bloggosphere matures. (Just like the printed word displaced town criers - and evolved into the newspaper format). With would-be competitors that are more focused, faster and more connected with the consumer, its commonly predicted that the entire newspaper industry will soon be lost to a world that no longer needs them.

VV is absolutely the new media. So keep writing, researching, and always approach coverage with neurality, but accept the fact that one man’s neutrality can always be interpreted as another man’s advocacy.

[mat]

Thanks to Rob for the list of active journalists in Victoria - my opinion is that Keith Vass is an unheralded hero for the number of stories he covers, and how well he writes. Lisa does radio, and is often overshadowed by a Vancouver-centric CBC, however, she has been here since the 1980's and knows the town inside out.

Ms Woods - is VV a news source? yes, frankly it is one of the best local resources for non-mainstream information, especially in regards to development issues - and certainly for OP-ED! One of the reasons is a lack of editorial control, everyone is free to post rumour (which often turns out to be true).

To bring this thread back onto topic - I did previously post about a potential rapid decline in City revenues, which should be taken into account before Council votes in new raises. Globe and Mail today...

VIRGINIA GALT
Globe and Mail Update
December 17, 2008 at 9:48 AM EST
Canadian cities are losing their economic momentum, and the slowdown is intensifying, the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce said Wednesday.

Falling home sales, fewer housing starts, rising unemployment and an increase in personal bankruptcies have contributed to the decline, economist Benjamin Tal said in an economic snapshot of Canadian cities.

CIBC's metropolitan economic activity index measures several economic variables – and most of those are less favourable than a year ago, Mr. Tal said.

The economic momentum of Canada's cities has been slowing for the past two years, he noted, “but the pace at which the index has been softening has accelerated dramatically over the past six months.”

The above is a neat illustration of how opinion expressed here on VV, becomes 'real' news.

[Bernard]

The discussion council needs to have is about if they are full time or not. If this is the primary full time job for a councilor, then the benefits package is completely realistic.

The pay we currently offer to Victoria and Saanich councilors means that there are a lot of people who can not afford to run for council and win.

The relative cost of paying the councilors as if it was a full time job is not enough to make any significant difference in the municipal budgets. Victoria has a budget in the range of $175 000 000, council is cheap in comparison.

There was a time when MLAs were not paid as if it was a full time job, but along the way we accepted the fact that they do work full time. Of our 79 MLAs, most them are not in cabinet and only need to deal with the legislative aspects of governance and so their workload is not insanely huge.

In my opinion, the work load of a councilor of a municipality of over 75 000 is a job that requires more work than that of an MLA that is not in cabinet. Our councilors must fulfill both the legislative and executive branches of governance. They also must do this without the benefit of their own staff.

I think it would very reasonable that each councilor be allowed to hire a full time assistant.

I am certain my views will not go over well with the world at this time, but I do think people need to think about the job we expect of our councilors and how much value we place on this being done well.

[Sue Woods]

In my opinion, the work load of a councilor of a municipality of over 75 000 is a job that requires more work than that of an MLA that is not in cabinet. Our councilors must fulfill both the legislative and executive branches of governance. They also must do this without the benefit of their own staff.

I think it would very reasonable that each councilor be allowed to hire a full time assistant.

I am certain my views will not go over well with the world at this time, but I do think people need to think about the job we expect of our councilors and how much value we place on this being done well.

We have 92 councillors in 13 municipalities with small georgraphic space to represent. It is not a full time job (while city staff are full time employees). In fact municipall council is not a full time position anywhere else in Canada, including the largest centers.

Lucas admits in that TC article that there are six jobs in his household. I put it to you that even councillors don't believe it is a full time job.

We are so out of our minds to keep 13 fifedoms. After amalgamation there may be a better case for more renumeration and more hours of service. But not at it is, in my opinion anyway.

[Bernard]

My point was more to show that the job of a councilor in Victoria and Saanich is more than the job of an MLA. We are willing to pay the MLA more to do less.

Do we want councilors overseeing $175 000 000 a year to be part time?

In Oak Bay, View Royal and Esquimalt, the job of the councilor is clearly not full time or even close to full time. But in Saanich and Victoria I do believe the scope and scale of the job is big enough to be full time.

A Saanich councilor is expected to be represent 115 000 people, about as many people as an MP does and twice what an MLA represents.

[Sue Woods]

My point was more to show that the job of a councilor in Victoria and Saanich is more than the job of an MLA. We are willing to pay the MLA more to do less.

Do we want councilors overseeing $175 000 000 a year to be part time?

In Oak Bay, View Royal and Esquimalt, the job of the councilor is clearly not full time or even close to full time. But in Saanich and Victoria I do believe the scope and scale of the job is big enough to be full time.

A Saanich councilor is expected to be represent 115 000 people, about as many people as an MP does and twice what an MLA represents.

With due respect, I think making the office full time to justify a pay increase seems backwards.

As for MLA's salaries being lucrative - guess thats one of the reasons many civic politcians have their sights set. Doesn't mean they are competent - or have the best interests of the commmunity at hand. Thats the thing about politics.

To me community service is about other things then one's personal finances. If they dont like to renumeration - no one forced them to run for office. Many have served before based on the reality of the hours and sacrifice without complaint is all I'm trying to say.

So two sides of the same coin I guess.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Hmmm... Remuneration questions aside, I think Bernard has a point that being a councilor is more than a part-time requirement.

Let's put it this way: if someone thinks they can really know all the issues (finance, infrastructure, social issues, business climate, housing, arts, etc. and so on) well enough without spending enough time to make it a full-time occupation, then I think that person is kidding themselves and going at the job with the wrong mind-set. If I'm a buffoon or have some kind of paternalistic attitude toward "running the city," I guess I could pull it off in some part-time fashion. You know, the old style "city fathers" who pat children on the head and mouth shibboleths: they could do this part-time. But modern leaders? Hmmm....

[Holden West]

The TC gives Lucas and Chandler a spanking:

Council should shelve benefits

December 17, 2008

The first priority of newly elected Victoria city councillors shouldn't be adding medical and dental benefits to their compensation package. Coun. Philippe Lucas unwisely raised the issue at the group's first meeting, as councillors approved a pay raise of something close to 40 per cent, taking compensation to $39,104. The mayor's pay increased about 20 per cent, to $97,760. (The increases are approximate because council also eliminated a tax-free portion of the compensation, making comparisons with the old rates dependent on each councillor's income from all sources.)

Councillors shouldn't be criticized for giving themselves raises. The previous council established a citizens' committee to review compensation with the aim of setting new rates before the election, so they would not be voting on their own pay. They were unable to complete the rather simple task before the election, a symbol of that council's difficulty getting things done.

But the quick push for benefits is unwarranted.

For starters, the citizens' committee recommendation included an 11-per-cent compensation increase to cover the costs of benefits available through a group plan offered by the Union of B.C. Municipalities. All councillors and mayors have the option of joining. The increases provided about $170 a month to cover the costs.

The city plan provides better benefits, as Lucas noted. But council, ultimately responsible for contract negotiations, should be wary of ending up in an apparent conflict of interest. That could happen if they agree to improvements in benefit plans under the union contracts and automatically share in the gains.

And councillors should not rush to have taxpayers -- many of whom have no health or dental plans -- pay for improvements for them.

The issue, again, raises bigger questions, starting with what we expect from councillors. At $39,000 -- $750 a week -- the pay allows few people without other resources to devote themselves exclusively to the work.

But it's also difficult to balance a full-time job or juggle several part-time jobs while dealing with the meetings, reading and community work required of councillors. That's likely a barrier that keeps many people, including some excellent candidates, from running.

Councillors will have to continue to work with that challenge, perhaps by redefining the role or increasing staff support -- at least until amalgamation allows full-time posts to be considered.

In the meantime, it's part-time work. A citizens' committee has addressed pay and benefits. Newly elected councillors shouldn't be seeking a better deal in their first weeks on the job.

© Copyright © The Victoria Times Colonist

[Sue Woods]

Let's put it this way: if someone thinks they can really know all the issues (finance, infrastructure, social issues, business climate, housing, arts, etc. and so on) well enough without spending enough time to make it a full-time occupation, then I think that person is kidding themselves and going at the job with the wrong mind-set.

I so totally agree - that is what's needed in modern leadership. But the fact is that during the entire 3 month campaign that many of us just went through - there were a total of 8 mins spent speaking in public debates about our education/expertise/ideas. And while I'd been told the broadcast media was planning to do a series of four panel interviews to give all candidates equal air-time, they all backed off that plan due to the sheer number of candidates.

So yes, incumbant and potential councillors should be literate on all issues - but just for an example that was previously mentioned in another thread, Lynn Hunter did not know what 'density bonusing' was when asked at a candidate meeting - I never heard her position on anything except the need for affordable housing. We know Chandler and Lucas are predominantly focussed on harm reduction and the environment. And whille its quite apparent that a few are great with transportation and economic issues, others not so much and seem most concerned with issues of hertiage preservation, or solving homelessness, or zoning.

So the reality is that we have a bunch of specialists with their own adjendas- who I am not saying do not have good things to bring to the table - but we do not have generalists. Thats precisely why I favour tightening up the nomination process and even provide an adult education course to potential candidates (as a "requirement" for nomination).

People get elected for a myriad of reason - but I do not believe anymore that their knowledge base for the job is supported or valued by the current system - nor provided to the voters in any real way short of candidates having a web presence.

(Snow always makes me highly opinionated ;-)

[Ms. B. Havin]

I agree, Sue. The single-issue special-interest folks managed to hijack the election often enough, and took the public's attention away from the high caliber of candidate we really need. And some of the people who got elected also do not inspire by dint of proving that they're well-rounded, knowledgeable, and able to participate in a way that's engaged but non-partisan.

@ Holden: thx for posting that editorial. This bit is important, imo: "Councillors shouldn't be criticized for giving themselves raises. The previous council established a citizens' committee to review compensation with the aim of setting new rates before the election, so they would not be voting on their own pay. They were unable to complete the rather simple task before the election, a symbol of that council's difficulty getting things done."

T'would be nice if that changed. (I'm thinking of the article about Gregor Robertson and the response he got from Premier Campbell...)

[Sue Woods]

a symbol of that council's difficulty getting things done."

That council is the same as this council with just 3 newcomers.

Why would things change..she asks pessimistically. (She also can't remember how to spell pessimistically but maybe thats a good sign.)

[sebberry]

What's frustrating to me is that the city councilors took a report that stated they earn less than average and turned it into a vote for a raise with no taxpayer consultation. Why wasn't this issue on the ballots for people to vote on?

I'm all for fair wages and pay equity, but how long did the library workers have to fight for their pay equity?

I'm all for people being paid a livable wage, but when (I can't remember which councilor) says that they need this raise to earn a livable wage, perhaps we should give all full-time minimum wage workers the same wage increase?

Pay increases should be given after results are demonstrated. Let's see the council make some positive changes in the community before rewarding them with raises.

[Sue Woods]

perhaps we should give all full-time minimum wage workers the same wage increase?

Thats what makes me crazy. Politicians hiking their wages with an internal vote.

RE mimimum wages being raised. Its high time and I am surprised with the lack of momentum by well paid politicians on that issue. We have betrayed our young people with the "casual employee" designation - so while they may eventually work up to minimum wage (after working for $6 an hr for months) they receive zero benefits, are limited to P/T hours - unofficial job sharing - and are fodder to be used by employers. Both my children went through years of that while working for a company heralded as a 'community focussed' grocery store. This, plus the abusive graded licensing system is a cash grab on the backs of our young.

[VicHockeyFan]

Thats what makes me crazy. Politicians hiking their wages with a simple vote.

We have betrayed our young people horribly in BC with the "casual employee" designation - so while they may eventually work up to minimum wage (after working for $6 an hr for months)

I challenge you to name one place that only pays $6 an hour to start. It doesn't exist.

[Sue Woods]

I challenge you to name one place that only pays $6 an hour to start. It doesn't exist.

Yes. It does.

When the BC Govt created the casual employee status it was framed as a way for employers to give young people their "first" job experience - and they could pay less then minimum wage for a limited period of time for supposedly providing job training to first time workers.

I do not have names of companys nor would I know how any of them structure their pay, I can only reiterate that my kids were given limited work hours (casual status) and the employer hired other young people/students to fill in the weekly hours to avoid paying employees benefits to any of them.

Many parents I've spoken to have seen the same with their kids under the 'casual worker' status. It exists and it makes it hard for kids to afford to move out - to know how many and what hours they are to work each week - and cheats them from the kinds of employee responsibilities and benefits that existed when many of us were young and starting off in the workforce.