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#21 mat

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 06:51 PM

Thanks for that post - summed up my life completely.

Having said that, the recent work with local small business, setting those clients up on blogs, facebook and twitter et al, and seeing their personal and professional reaction is fascinating.

On the personal side: - they get set up on facebook with a personal profile, and quickly connect with all sorts of 'distant' friends and family (quote - "I thought cousin X was dead!")

On the business side: - had 2 clients in an almost panic recently to get a business Facebook presence as "customers are questioning our legitimacy" (? !). Not sure myself what is says about any customer who regard buying preference from Facebook presence - or my clients, who are rightfully saying 'WHAT the F...?'. Even the VCC only got it's Facebook page up in the last month. There seems to be an online social network madness right now.

There are of course marketing advantages to online social networking, if it is done correctly, and putting the time into every account. I see local businesses who do fine without any online presence, and see others who could gain tremendously in competitive markets if they understood, and utilized, all their online presence correctly. Like all marketing it takes time and effort.

Ultimately real life networking beats online. Face to face beats video conferencing, and twitter updating. All online marketing, and personal social networking is a tool - and just like blackberries and laptops, must be shut off occasionally so we can connect with what is going on around us directly.

#22 Nparker

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 11:32 AM

It's comforting to know it's not just print media that skips the spell-checker.

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#23 Rob Randall

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 07:16 AM

Black Press is suing Paul Seal and a couple of his local websites for stealing content. 

 

While it is true websites like Victoria BC Today and Victoria Buzz copy news content from The Victoria News and other Black sites, I believe Paul will argue that he includes links to the original articles and that his pages, driven by huge Facebook traffic, actually increase Black Press' overall page views.

 

I think where they crossed the line is when they went from providing links and brief snippets to pretty much copying the main guts of the story.

 

Black is suing Paul for $20,000 per copied story so I hope he's got a sharp lawyer.


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#24 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 07:25 AM

It's complex law, for sure.  It's called "fair dealing" in Canadain copyright law.

 

https://en.wikipedia...n_copyright_law

 

To qualify under the fair dealing exception, the dealing must be for a purpose enumerated in sections 29, 29.1 or 29.2 of the Copyright Act of Canada (research, private study, education, parody, satire, criticism or review and news reporting)

 

(that might put you to sleep)


Edited by VicHockeyFan, 07 December 2017 - 07:28 AM.

<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#25 Mike K.

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:17 AM

The issue with Victoria Buzz is that when they re-write content, they do so (at least when it's content from Citified) without attributing the original work to the source that first dug up the information. I personally know the owner of the site and while he's a great guy, his staff appear to have had little desire to respect a gentleman's agreement, if you will. I do believe the owner has had a conversation with his staff with respect to their conduct and I want to believe they will respect the time, money and effort that goes into writing even a small piece by an independent news source.

 

Consider the following as one of numerous examples:

 

"Situated next to Fort Street’s VanCity Credit Union branch, the eatery will be within 500 metres walking distance from the Blanshard and Johnson streets location that has operated at the base of the Juliet condominium complex for nearly a decade."https://victoria.cit...ntown-victoria/

 

A few hours later, a writer by the name of Brishti Basu writes:

 

"The proposed location will arrive by 2018 at the latest. And will be right next to Fort Street’s VanCity Credit Union branch – which is a mere 500 metres away from the first downtown Timmy’s."http://victoriabuzz....ntown-victoria/

 

See, the 500 metres bit was something that I threw in as a "trap," if you will. Who writes 500 metres? Few do, but it's a different way of saying three blocks, right? And it's not really 500 metres. It's actually closer to 450 and Ms. Basu would have known that had she calculated the distance herself.

 

And then:

 

"A former Telus mobility and business communications store along the 700-block of Fort Street will be converted to the popular fast-food chain, due to open its doors by late this year or by early 2018." - Citified

 

"Tim Hortons plans to open a second location along the 700-block of Fort St – in a converted Telus mobility retail store – possibly by late 2017." - Victoria Buzz

 

See what I did there? I have no idea when the coffee shop will actually open. And clearly it's not opening by the end of 2017 but I provided a window of potentiality. Together with the Buzz snippet above and the one with the 500 metre reference, we can see that the VB writer not only referenced the identical distance between the two locations but also the potential for opening dates.

 

So what's fair? Lazy re-writing with no shame or desire to credit, or copying a couple of paragraphs with a direct link to the source?


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#26 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:21 AM

Let's be very clear.  The LAW says you can copy verbatim, under certain circumstances.  That's what I referenced with the Wikipedia piece.

 

So while I understand what you have written Mike, I want to be clear that it's not just about fairness or laziness.

 

I happened to be listening to the Ocean this morning.  They quoted all kinds of facts and figures from today's TC article about bike lanes.  No credit.  But you have to know they just read the story, maybe made a few notes, then read stuff on air.

 

Now if you want to delve into case law with respect to "fair dealing" in Canada, the biggest case so far was between Bell Media as the defendant, and SOCAN as the plaintiff.  SOCAN did not like Bell letting consumer hear song clips for free, before deciding to buy them on iTunes.  So consumers got to hear ~30 second clips, verbatim, without anyone getting paid for those listens. 

 

SOCAN lost the case, the court ruled that 30 second clips were fine, it allowed consumers to research the songs prior to a possible purchase.

 

Now, not that is purely commercial uses, and those songs are not published for "free" anywhere.  Yet Bell, it was ruled, had every right to give away parts of the songs it did not own. 

 

In the case of free newspapers like Black Press, and free websites like the TC or CBC, and the public good of news dissemination and the case becomes somewhat complex.  More complex than just somebody using someone else's sentences.


Edited by VicHockeyFan, 07 December 2017 - 08:27 AM.

<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#27 Mike K.

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:25 AM

Cross-platform copying is a different matter. But if Ocean were a newspaper I suspect the TC would be contacting them.

 

But despite what the law says, there is also the issue of plagiarism. You cannot merely re-write or paraphrase someone's work without attributing them in some way, universities tell us. A university student like Ms. Basu should be very familiar with the concept of plagiarism and the importance of crediting sources. This is a basic requirement that first year students are made very, very familiar with and the repercussions of not playing by the rules can be severe.


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#28 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:29 AM

^ Oh, absolutely, the credit of the source (and in the case of Victoria BC TODAY, also a minimum of two web links direct to the original story) is key.


Edited by VicHockeyFan, 07 December 2017 - 08:30 AM.

<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#29 Mike K.

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:35 AM

So what exactly is Black Press going to court over? I don't understand how their lawyers believe they have enough to go on when fair use in this country is obviously loosely defined, and you credit the source to ensure readers know where they can read the entirety of the story you've referenced.

 

You even go so far as to not use their images, if the article does include an image, and you often use a different headline (at times? I dunno).

 

I have to wonder if Black Press quietly liked that you used to link directly to their news articles from your massive Facebook pages. And when you ceased doing so and in turn directed your traffic to your personal website, that's when they took action? Is that a possibility?


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#30 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:38 AM

It's a possibility.  For 7 years they never minded the Facebook links, thank you very much.

 

It's also possibly simply a chill move.  Will Victoria Buzz now leave alone VicNews stories?  Probably.


Edited by VicHockeyFan, 07 December 2017 - 08:39 AM.

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<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#31 Mike K.

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:42 AM

What do you mean leave them alone? Do they also rewrite their stories?

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#32 spanky123

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:44 AM

^ I thought that the only reason why anyone linked to BP stories was to mock the grammar and poor writing. Would that not be considered parody!



#33 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:55 AM

What do you mean leave them alone? Do they also rewrite their stories?

 

Look, unless we are always everywhere at all times, stories grow from somewhere.  I'm not saying Victoria Buzz re-writes BP stories, but if BP uncovers a story first, VB might chase that story too.  Now maybe they won't.

 

Two days ago VBCT was first with a story about a memorial bench in Sooke.  A fan tipped VBCT off early in the day.  A story was filed.  Later that same day, CHEK followed.  Then the next day, BP. 

 

Two days ago VBCT pointed people to a FB post by a local physician, critical of a TC editorial.  A day later, VB had the same story.

 

Yesterday, CHEK had a news story about a drunk driver in West Shore.  VBCT wrote a story based on the WS RCMP press release.  The CHEK item lead VBCT to seek more of the story.  

 

I dunno, that's how it all works, I guess.


Edited by VicHockeyFan, 07 December 2017 - 08:56 AM.

<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#34 Mike K.

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:02 AM

So what is the point of even authoring something if others are just waiting to chase it by re-arranging already written and researched content?

 

It's a tailspin to the bottom if people are simply "chasing" content others have created. Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure this sort of thing has been going on for many years, but at least before the age of the Internet the big publishers took the time to investigate their own angle for a story a competitor dug up. Now we're supposed to believe poorly written, more or less plagiarized content is reporting?


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#35 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:11 AM

^ Well, do you only want one media company to run a particular story?

 

If North Korea sends the nuke over, if CNN gets it first, they get exclusive domain?

 

I think it's healthy to have multiple coverages, even if lots is overlap.

 

As you know, every single story VBCT runs gets posted on Facebook, and then there can be vigorous public debate.  That's not the case with TC and BP, for example.


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<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#36 Rob Randall

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:54 AM

30 seconds of a four-minute song is one thing, but Paul's sites were reprinting over half the article's content, the meat of the story.

 

As for fair use, you can use a news clip and turn it into a commentary or satire, or a music clip into a critique or review, but turning news into news violates the spirit of the law, especially if nothing new is added.

 

There's nothing wrong with a reporter hearing a story on another media form and chasing it down and writing their own story. Some news outlets are better than others when it comes to giving credit where credit is due.


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#37 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:14 AM

30 seconds of a four-minute song is one thing, but Paul's sites were reprinting over half the article's content, the meat of the story.

 

That's absolutely untrue.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#38 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:16 AM

As for fair use, you can use a news clip and turn it into a commentary or satire, or a music clip into a critique or review, but turning news into news violates the spirit of the law, especially if nothing new is added.

 

That's also incorrect.  If you do not think I'm very well-read on "fair dealing" wrt Canadian copyright laws, you are mistaken.  I'll even suggest no online news guy in this town knows more about it than I do.

 

Do not mix up the US "fair use" with Canadian laws, they are not the same.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#39 Benezet

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:18 AM

So what exactly is Black Press going to court over? I don't understand how their lawyers believe they have enough to go on when fair use in this country is obviously loosely defined, and you credit the source to ensure readers know where they can read the entirety of the story you've referenced....


Have a look deep down in the Wikipedia article ( https://en.m.wikiped...n_copyright_law ) especially under “Fairness of the dealing”. A noteworthy quote given is: “If they are used to convey the same information as the author, for a rival purpose, that may be unfair.”

Also, https://globalnews.c...-stole-content/

#40 Mike K.

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:50 AM

There's nothing wrong with a reporter hearing a story on another media form and chasing it down and writing their own story. Some news outlets are better than others when it comes to giving credit where credit is due.

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

But what is wrong is re-writing someone else's work and passing it off as your own. Even crediting the original source is somewhat lame if your MO is to re-write someone else's work and not add a shred of additional information to the discussion, but at least you're acknowledging where the information originated from and the individual(s) who did your leg work.


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