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#1 sebberry

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 09:42 AM

Now that ICBC wants to jack up rates for 1/3 of all British Columbians, I think it is time we need an ICBC thread.


ICBC to change the way you pay
Ticket-prone drivers face rate hikes as insurer retools, cutting 350 jobs


[...]

Read more: http://www.timescolo...l#ixzz1MLk6D8od



Does one ticket make a bad driver? Solicitor general questions ICBC
Bond concerned about plan to hike premiums after one speeding rap


[...]

Read more: http://www.timescolo...l#ixzz1MLjXNw1r



Comment: ICBC plan puts insurance system at risk
Speeding tickets shouldn't affect how much you pay in premiums


[...]

Read more: http://www.timescolo...l#ixzz1MLio1177


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#2 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:12 AM

How about some real competition for ICBC. Then give all insurers access to your driving record (when you give them permission to seek it) and let the market take care of rates.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#3 sebberry

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:57 AM

How about some real competition for ICBC. Then give all insurers access to your driving record (when you give them permission to seek it) and let the market take care of rates.


The only problem with that is in the insurance business competition doesn't lead to reduced rates. The insurers work as an oligopoly and keep rates high.

Ontario is a good example of this. People with no convictions or collisions often see large increases in their premiums for no reason.

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#4 G-Man

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:13 PM

ICBC is one example of public system outdoing the private. BC still has one of the cheapest car insurance rates in the country and those with private insurance have some of the most expensive.

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#5 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:51 PM

ICBC is one example of public system outdoing the private. BC still has one of the cheapest car insurance rates in the country and those with private insurance have some of the most expensive.


Even ICBC does not claim that.

http://find-a-drivin...nsurers-greedy/

The Fraser Institute also tracks auto insurance premiums. In their ‘08 study, Personal Cost and Affordability of Automobile Insurance in Canada, the think-tank compared the ‘07 rates of provinces with government-run auto insurance monopolies (B.C., Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Quebec), with the provinces that offer private auto insurance:
- B.C. $1,304
- ONT. $1,229
- SASK. $1,063
- MAN. $1,029
- ALTA. $959
- N.B. $768
- N.S. $749
- QUE. $719
- N.L. $703
- P.E.I. $701


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#6 sebberry

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 03:22 PM

I wonder where the ightwing nutjobs at the Fraser get their info.


I pay $1200 for insurance here in BC.

I used an online quote site to see what my coverage would be in Toronto:




And a few years ago when I used the same tool for insurance quotes in Edmonton, my rates were 2-3 times what I was paying here at the time.

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#7 vandervalk

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 04:03 PM

My insurance rates in Ontario were 3 times more than they are currently here in BC. I can't tell you what I would be paying there now, but I was shocked to see how much less it was in BC.
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#8 jklymak

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 04:26 PM

^ Having had insurance in the states for many years, I can assure you that ICBC is a great deal.

The Fraser Institute, as usual, are full of crap. For a report that seems less biased in its results http://www.consumer....0910_report.pdf. Ontario is more than twice as expensive as B.C.

#9 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 04:59 PM

^ Having had insurance in the states for many years, I can assure you that ICBC is a great deal.

The Fraser Institute, as usual, are full of crap. For a report that seems less biased in its results http://www.consumer....0910_report.pdf. Ontario is more than twice as expensive as B.C.


Ontario pays out injury claims at a rate about 4 times higher than BC. ie. if someone rams you and injures you and it's not your fault, you get well-compensated.

Are other provinces using gender, age-based or experience-based rates? ICBC only does that to a limited degree for the latter two, with the Roadstar program or whatever it's called.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#10 sebberry

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 05:06 PM

Ontario's system also invites a lot more insurance fraud via "staged accidents" thanks to the no-fault system.

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#11 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 05:11 PM

Ontario's system also invites a lot more insurance fraud via "staged accidents" thanks to the no-fault system.


Apparently Sask. lets you choose a no-fault or non no-fault and only 1% of people choose no-fault.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#12 LJ

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:33 PM

I think the Fraser Institute was just looking at the basic underlying insurance. Once you add collision, comprehensive, and then any surcharges you have to pay it is probably the lowest or next to lowest.

I know of a person who was paying $2500 here and the same coverage in Alberta was over $9000 with his driving record, he moved to Saskatchewan and got it for about $2500 again.

Also in private insurance provinces you may not even find anyone willing to insure you at any price. This leads to people driving uninsured and reduces your protection.
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#13 eseedhouse

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 07:01 PM

The only problem with that is in the insurance business competition doesn't lead to reduced rates. The insurers work as an oligopoly and keep rates high.

Ontario is a good example of this. People with no convictions or collisions often see large increases in their premiums for no reason.


Insurance is a natural monopoly when everyone *must* purchase the insurance, by law. You can't drive a car without insurance in B.C. and the law of large numbers means that the most efficient insurer will be the one that insures everyone. Fooling around with this by introducing "competition" into that business just makes premiums higher, as we have seen happen under the "Liberal" government in B.C.

Monopolies are above the market and so should not be in the market, but rather owned or heavily regulated by the government. Putting all automobile insurance back under the government owned monopoly would result in cheaper insurance for all.

Markets are very useful things that work well in the right circumstances. So I believe in using market mechanisms in, for example, the production of automobiles and many other things. But free markets in auto insurance and medical insurance, among other things, are inefficient and just cause trouble.

Competition doesn't make a commodity that is a natural monopoly cheaper, it makes it more expensive.

#14 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 06:34 AM

^ How did all those great, large, efficient monopolies in the USSR work out? The old telephone monopoly here? The problem with ANY monopoly is that there is zero incentive for efficiency, and indeed there is zero incentive to allow the consumer more options.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#15 Mike K.

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 11:38 AM

I fear the day ICBC is dissolved and private insurance companies take over.

Even though there are a lot of issues with ICBC, the system, for the most part, works.

As for tickets leading to higher rates, I have no problem with that. There are far too many idiots on the road who rake up tickets with the thinking that its the "cost of doing business," or whatever you want to call it. Drivers who grossly exceed speed limits amidst slower traffic deserve what they get, and if it means highly increased insurance rates for them, so be it.

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#16 eseedhouse

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 05:49 PM

^ How did all those great, large, efficient monopolies in the USSR work out? The old telephone monopoly here? The problem with ANY monopoly is that there is zero incentive for efficiency, and indeed there is zero incentive to allow the consumer more options.


What has that to do with anything (except, of course, rather obvious "red-bating"). The USSR attempted to run a command economy which doesn't work well except under exceptional circumstances such as war. I was discussing the situation of monopolies in a mixed free market system, which is an entirely different, and to my mind better way of doing things.

Now I used the term term "natural monopoly", which has has a technical meaning which I invite you to look up as it is an important term in economics.

If you'll stop red-baiting and start discussing we might get somewhere and reach some conclusions. But I won't hold my breath waiting.

#17 sebberry

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 06:15 PM

As for tickets leading to higher rates, I have no problem with that. There are far too many idiots on the road who rake up tickets with the thinking that its the "cost of doing business," or whatever you want to call it. Drivers who grossly exceed speed limits amidst slower traffic deserve what they get, and if it means highly increased insurance rates for them, so be it.


You mention drivers who grossly exceed the speed limit. I have no problem ticketing drivers who are speeding excessively while weaving in and out of slower traffic.

BUT:

1) Police can, and do, write speeding tickets for as little as just a few km/hr over the posted limit. That means anyone doing 85km/hr on the Pat Bay in the 80 zone (almost everyone) will be considered high risk by ICBC. Really, who isn't doing at least 10-20km/hr over the posted limit on the Pat Bay?

How about the wreckless morons going 60km/hr on Blanshard near Mayfair mall/SJ Willis? Or the drivers travelling 100km/hr northbound after the Malahat where it flattens out. Despite routinely speeding with no ill effects, ICBC wants to consider those drivers high-risk.

2) Most drivers (including the ones who support ICBC's new plan) don't consider themselves "speeders", despite exceeding the limit by what they consider to be a reasonable amount. They feel as long as they're within an acceptable tolerance (the famous 10km/hr grace) they'll be OK.

3) Speeding convictions do not require lidar/radar be used. An officer's visual estimation alone is good enough for a conviction. "Well I think he was speeding, but I'm not sure". "Guilty!".

4) The BC Government ordered a speed limit review in BC in 2002 which resulted in a number of recommendations to raise speed limits. To date, that hasn't been done. Until speed limits have been set appropriately, you can't label everyone who drives at a reasonable speed for the road design and conditions as a dangerous driver.

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#18 kenjh

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 05:13 AM

sebberry..you seem to be the most intelligent voice here..as a high mileage driver .I know I will get ticketed at least once a year.. generally (in my view) for stupid stuff..ie. $ 109 .00 for fail to signal a lane change..or 109 for a clearance light inoperative.. Icbc works ..just .. but I fine it amusing that washington state insurance for my motorcycle is 25% of ICBC's rate..for the same coverage..

#19 G-Man

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 06:10 AM

1200 for insurance at ICBC? My basic rate is 539 and with collision and liability it is 935 a year. In fact I used to buy my additional insurance from ING but they upped their rates and so ICBC was now cheaper for those as well.

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#20 Mike K.

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 06:33 AM

You mention drivers who grossly exceed the speed limit. I have no problem ticketing drivers who are speeding excessively while weaving in and out of slower traffic.

BUT:

1) Police can, and do, write speeding tickets for as little as just a few km/hr over the posted limit. That means anyone doing 85km/hr on the Pat Bay in the 80 zone (almost everyone) will be considered high risk by ICBC. Really, who isn't doing at least 10-20km/hr over the posted limit on the Pat Bay?


The law permits you to drive 55km/h in a 50, 88km/h in a 80, 99km/h in a 90, 110km/h in a 100, and so on.

If you're doing 100 in an 80, that's cutting it. I got ticketed for doing just that, actually (I was the only vehicle on that stretch of the Pat Bay, so I let 'er rip). And the cop told me straight up that had I been doing 90, give or take, he wouldn't have flinched.

Speed isn't necessarily a bad thing but its the context within which it is used. If traffic is traveling at 80-90km/h, why race past everyone to the next red light by going 100 and impatiently tailgating other vehicles? It's a nuisance and I have no sympathy for that style of driving.

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