77 replies to this topic

[gumgum]

Well 10 years ago I mustn't have thought it was too bad either seeing as I chose to move here. But things have improved and are bound to get much better. The more influx of residents d/t is a huge key to improvements and that's definately the trend.
Humbolt valley, the Falls, the Sovereign, all the Lefevre projects, 834, Union, Northern Junk, Janion, and more have all presented themselves pretty recently.
This shows that (a) people appreciate downtown enough that they want to
live there and (b) this densification is bound to improve things even more.

I think that since there is a demand for residents d/t shows that things are definately on the upswing.

There's a certain 'tiredness' to every downtown. Ottawa, Toronto, montreal, Vancouver etc all could be percieved as having an element of dumpiness. But mostly I think
it's just well used.

I feel much more safe d/t than I ever have.

[Mike K.]

I am actually astonished how much things have improved downtown.

Me too.

The downtown Victoria of the 1990's where I spent the majority of my days as a little single-digit youngin all the way up through my late teens is a far, far cry from the downtown of today.

The downtown area has vastly improved over the last 20 years. For those who rarely come downtown obviously it's a grittier and more urban experience than anywhere else in the region, but that's what downtowns are, they are urban experiences in and of themselves.

Certainly, Fernwood suffered the same problem - arguably, the gentrification was punctuated and Fernwood "arrived" with the culmination of that recent NY Times article.

Some 50 years ago James Bay was so dangerous that cabbies refused to drive there. It was the apartment building (lower class housing) dumping ground, home to Victoria's shipyards, home to petty street gangs and a gritty urban/industrial area that would put the downtown Victoria of today to shame.

[PulpVictor]

I've lived in NYC, LA, Chicago, and other large cities around the world. Maybe I'm just old, but there is absolutely nothing downtown that interests me. I used to pick my daughter up at The Bay Centre, and that cured me of any (small) desire I had of shopping, driving, walking, or being downtown.

[sdwright.vic]

I have got to say this is all a matter of perception, and perception is based in what one has been exposed to. Having lived in Vancouver, Seattle, San Francisco, and NYC I got to say EVERY city has it little corner of dumpiness and danger. But for these larger cities its much easier to place those off your personal grid.

Victoria being such a small downtown, their is little chance of you placing this areas off you grid, as any direction you go; north, south, east, or west- you have to go through one of these "areas" to get into or out of downtown. But this the be as contender as one of the most unsafe and dangerous downtown's is a bit of a reach around.

Now having said that, I was in the Bay Centre yesterday, and its vacancy rate certainly is on the upswing.

[aastra]

Victoria being such a small downtown, their is little chance of you placing this areas off you grid, as any direction you go; north, south, east, or west- you have to go through one of these "areas"

I'm not sure I agree with this notion. In the north/south direction you can access downtown Victoria along several routes, and you can also drive straight through downtown Victoria on your way to somewhere else. Victoria's downtown is not isolated from the rest of the city. It's not even clear where downtown Victoria begins and ends.

But from the south and north you can access downtown Vancouver along only a few routes. Enter along Burrard and downtown Vancouver will seem spiffy and wonderful because the Burrard route is lined by new condo buildings and office towers and Burrard ends abruptly at a gleaming new condo-fied waterfront. Take Granville and you'll get a very similar impression. Granville's former seediness is pretty much gone now. Lots of gleaming new retail spaces. Come in on the Cambie Street Bridge and all you'll see are new condo buildings (head further west through downtown and you'll see the comfortable west end neighbourhood, which ends abruptly at Stanley Park). Come in along the Lion's Gate Bridge and Georgia street will seem pristine and condo-fied and wonderful much like Burrard. It's only when you enter downtown Vancouver from the east that you still see any seediness (there are several streets running in and out along the eastern edge, as coincidence would have it).

Which leads me to ask, isn't that homogeneous, gentrified "downtown Vancouver" atmosphere exactly what Victorians have been resisting for the past few decades? Isn't that precisely why there was such an uproar about cleaning up the Y-lot and building the Falls and the Juliet (not to mention cleaning up/repurposing the Hudson)? Isn't that precisely why there's a mini-uproar about the Northern Junk project? Because Victorians, in their zeal to have a downtown that includes and represents all socio-economic levels equally, ended up developing a distaste for including/representing the upper middle class at all? Isn't that why the city hasn't taken any positive action to drive densification downtown? Because gleaming new residential projects encourage more gleaming new residential projects, which would ultimately squeeze the lower end out of downtown?

Isn't that a piece of what Gene Miller was talking about in the June issue of Focus?

While it’s good that the mayor, several months ago, intervened literally at the last moment to reduce the severity of the City’s bonus density policy (in which the City keeps urban densities artificially low to force developers to “buy” from the City the additional density they need to create viable projects), his actions simply softened Victoria’s development policy disincentives. The City has to stop thinking that a move from -5 to -3 is palliation worth cheering, and must figure out what a set of +5 policies would look like. I don’t know how to say this more simply: Victoria needs 10,000-20,000 new people living and working in and near Downtown.

I agree that there are a lot of vacancies. Although there are a lot of vacancies in Vancouver, too. But it seems to be worse in Victoria (probably because of the huge amount of new commercial space that's being built at Uptown, Hillside, and in other areas of Victoria).

Edited by aastra, 19 December 2020 - 01:23 PM.

[ZGsta]

Always astonishes me when these threads come up here. I think on a web forum though you are likely to get a lot more introverts who have problems getting out in general.

Seriously though, "Oh noes! a fast food restaurant fight!!!! Victoria must be awful"??
Like those videos don't make the rounds through the web from every other city in North America?

[sdwright.vic]

I'm not sure I agree with this notion. In the north/south direction you can access downtown Victoria along several routes, and you can also drive straight through downtown Victoria on your way to somewhere else. Victoria's downtown is not isolated from the rest of the city. It's not even clear where downtown Victoria begins and ends.

Besides Douglas and Blanshard, what are the other "major" routes into down from north-south?

[aastra]

I would say Wharf, Government, Douglas, Blanshard, Quadra, Vancouver, and Cook are all used regularly by large numbers of people to go north and south through downtown. I didn't include Wharf in my original post because I was conceding that some people might be turned off by Store Street's seedy aspect/reputation. So excluding Wharf/Store Street, what are the bad areas that those other streets run through?

Edit: Sorry, I see now that I didn't include any streets in my original post. But I was thinking of the streets mentioned above.

[tedward]

I think what kills a downtown is people scaring others away by making them think it's a frightening place after sundown. ...

Sadly people see what they want to see and there is little point arguing.

I happen to see a vibrant, mostly clean and interesting downtown that I enjoy during the day. If I was 20-something I would probably enjoy the bars and clubs and be amused by morons fighting in BK. As a middle-aged father I find little that interests me in the evening and the idea of eating anything at BK makes me queasy anyway. YMMV.

[Mike K.]

I've seen fist fights break out at at least one classy(er) restaurant in town over the years. Alcohol fueled behaviour knows no bounds, unfortunately.

Heck, kids get mugged walking home in Oak Bay or Central Saanich. This sort of stuff happens everywhere. Speaking of which didn't a bus driver who participates on VV tell us that the majority of incidents on the #6 bus occur along the Saanich portion of the route and not in Esquimalt or downtown?

[sdwright.vic]

I would say Wharf, Government, Douglas, Blanshard, Quadra, Vancouver, and Cook are all used regularly by large numbers of people to go north and south through downtown. I didn't include Wharf in my original post because I was conceding that some people might be turned off by Store Street's seedy aspect/reputation. So excluding Wharf/Store Street, what are the bad areas that those other streets run through?

Edit: Sorry, I see now that I didn't include any streets in my original post. But I was thinking of the streets mentioned above.

Okay so here's what I think:

Wharf- not a north-south artery as it does not go all the way through downtown.

Government- Rock Bay and the hooker stroll.

Douglas- the area north of Paul's Motor Inn is a bit shabby (especially being the main entrance to downtown and what people see). Plus the 7-11 and Mac's corners.

Blanshard-kind of a now man's land going south of the Bay Center- Almost like its turned its back on the world. Area around the arena not all that great either.

Quadra, Vancouver and Cook- Okay I will agree that they are north-south corridor's but not really into the downtown core in my opinion. But all of them are cursed by the area around London Drugs. These all go north-south but require a turn to get to the core.

[aastra]

I don't think anyone is going to disagree that Douglas, Government, and Blanshard north of Herald could/should be improved significantly, but if the premise of this discussion is that downtown is looking dumpy now as compared to the downtown of ~10 years or ~20 years ago then I'd say those stretches are actually no better/no worse than they've been at any time during the recent past. Minor improvements such as the more attractive arena and the little condo building on the Herald St. corner have been offset by minor steps back such as the Radius hole (it really is a minor step back compared to what was there before) and some other things. The motor inn is the same as it ever was.

As for the other spots, Yates and Douglas is pretty much the same as it ever was. Maybe it's a bit seedier than before, but not by much. Blanshard has seen some positive changes in the form of 800 Yates and the Juliet. The London Drugs area may not be pretty but it was never pretty (the strip mall format of that complex never should have been permitted there). Give me the choice and I'd much prefer what's there now (the London Drugs, the supermarket, the Starbucks, and the various other shops, restaurants and new-ish residential buildings) as compared to the pre-London Drugs era.

[sdwright.vic]

Victoria being such a small downtown, their is little chance of you placing this areas off you grid, as any direction you go; north, south, east, or west- you have to go through one of these "areas" to get into or out of downtown.

I'm not sure I agree with this notion. In the north/south direction you can access downtown Victoria along several routes, and you can also drive straight through downtown Victoria on your way to somewhere else. Victoria's downtown is not isolated from the rest of the city. It's not even clear where downtown Victoria begins and ends.

I never said anything about a comparison between the downtown of today and the downtown of 30 years ago. I stated that you can not go any direction without going through an area that's going to give you a bad perception of downtown. Especially if your a tourist or suburbanite. We know every one thinks that they are all safe an cozy in the burbs.... :rolleyes:

[aastra]

I know you didn't say that. The thread title says that. Is downtown looking dumpy? (by implication, is it looking dumpy now, today, as compared to some earlier time)

I'd be much more comfortable showing a tourist the length of Government Street or Douglas Street or Blanshard Street or Quadra Street today than at any earlier point in my lifetime.

I'd say the recent positive changes all over downtown Victoria far outweigh the recent negative changes. If seeing London Drugs or a fairly new 7-Eleven is going to turn off a tourist then we should probably be very relieved that the tourist never saw the Y-lot or the the lot where the Falls now stands.

[Baro]

I guess the question is "dumpy compared to what". Dumpy compared to Vancouver's downtown peninsula? Dumpy compared to "downdown" duncan? Dumpy compared to Kreuzberg?

Victoria is doing a lot better than many places, but worse than some others. Overall I'd say we're doing pretty good, at least we HAVE a downtown with things to do and restaurants and such. Many city's downtowns have decayed to being little more than parking lots and office towers.

[Holden West]

Look back at those aerial photos of Downtown from 60 years ago. Note how bleak, empty and desolate it was outside the Oldtown core. Vacant lots about, no pedestrians. Downtown's been on a steady climb and every year is better than the last despite the lingering eyesores, like the vacant Douglas storefronts. The Blanshard/Johnson area alone is amazing now.

[pherthyl]

No, I'm pretty sure I know what it means, do you?

As for the rest of your comment, is everyone tonight incapable making a proper argument? I'm getting nothing but straw tonight.

So, two teenagers arguing is suddenly the same as crackheads, or even remotely similar? Give it up, your example was terrible.

[Bob Fugger]

So, two teenagers arguing is suddenly the same as crackheads, or even remotely similar? Give it up, your example was terrible.

So is your argument. Why don't you debate me on the issue instead of zeroing in on a minor aspect and using that to invalidate my opinion?

[dasmo]

Victoria is a jewel. One of the rare human scale downtowns in the country. Now, it does have issues to deal with, crime, panhandling, drug abuse, and my personal nemesis, public deification. But if you are a townie you harden to such things I guess. If you are a suburbanite you get used to leaving your wooden box to get into your metal box to drive close to the concrete box to buy your cardboard boxes only exposing yourself briefly to the open air parking lot. A relatively insulated experience.

[aastra]

...public deification.

Hypocrites praying at streetcorners?