5833 replies to this topic

[sebberry]

Maybe because your building is 40 yrs old? When I lived at the 834 (one bedroom non-corner unit) I was averaging around $17-$18 per month. I never turned on the heat and I didn't cook a lot, but I do quite a bit of laundry. Now I am around $22 a month in my 2 bedroom but once again A/C only a few days every summer. I do heat in winter from time to time but heatpump is efficient.

 

I use fairly little heat and I use the A/C lots in the summer.  A couple of computers on 24/7.  Most lights are LED.  

 

 

[Mike K.]

Even in the article you cite it states that high-rise buildings are up to 40% less efficient than low-rise. This, posted earlier, indicates that even at a 40% increase in energy consumption apartment buildings are far more efficient: https://www.eia.gov/...il.php?id=11731

 

It's really damaging to have someone such as yourself mistaking 'tall buildings use energy' as 'tall buildings are less efficient per household than detached houses'. That's, again, simply false. The data is clear. Every planning principle adhered to relies on a progression to compact development. Note that this is not 'progression to high-rise', as high-rise can be less dense than an evenly distributed low-rise environment such as the London in your example. This isn't even taking into account the sprawl (roads, pipes, cable, etc) required to support detached houses. This is just a building to building comparison. 

 

It's a square footage comparison. Construction costs are not factored into the numbers.

[Mike K.]

Think Dockside green development currently under construction versus trying to fit that many people in SFHs on the Westshore and the clearcutting and infrastructure required, not to mention the commuting. I would say the towers are much more friendlier.

 

The benefits of building higher densities is mostly realized through less reliance on transportation that emits GHGs by virtue of location. We glance over the environmental impacts of the construction of concrete towers, and their operating costs/energy requirements.

[punk cannonballer]

It's also reliant on the fact that a per-household building cost is much more efficient and emits less GHGs in apartment dwelling than in detached houses. We don't 'glance over' the costs of construction of concrete towers; it's a cost. Buildings use energy. Apartment buildings use less energy per occupant. You said they didn't. I dunno, couch your statements all you want. We can make large buildings more efficient over time; this does not change the fact that higher density development is more efficient than low density development. 

[Mike K.]

Maybe because your building is 40 yrs old? When I lived at the 834 (one bedroom non-corner unit) I was averaging around $17-$18 per month. I never turned on the heat and I didn't cook a lot, but I do quite a bit of laundry. Now I am around $22 a month in my 2 bedroom but once again A/C only a few days every summer. I do heat in winter from time to time but heatpump is efficient.

 

That accounts for only 40% of the energy cost of your residence. Strata pays the remaining 60% for the common areas and building systems.

[Mike K.]

It's also reliant on the fact that a per-household building cost is much more efficient and emits less GHGs in apartment dwelling than in detached houses. We don't 'glance over' the costs of construction of concrete towers; it's a cost. Buildings use energy. Apartment buildings use less energy per occupant. You said they didn't. I dunno, couch your statements all you want. We can make large buildings more efficient over time; this does not change the fact that higher density development is more efficient than low density development. 

 

You're referring to efficiencies beyond energy use. I'm talking about energy.

 

50% of the City of Vancouver's residential electricity is consumed by mid and highrise buildings.

[punk cannonballer]

Buddy...seriously. You're not making sense. The initial statement was higher density uses more energy and IT. DOES. NOT.  Not one citation. Break down the energy consumption of any apartment building (I don't care how tall) vs detached residential. Detached residential uses WAY more energy per occupant than mid or high rise buildings. Here's a news article - I ask you if you disagree with it: https://ottawacitize...the-environment

[Mike K.]

Right, as I was saying:

 

"Highrise buildings are also typically located near public transportation and commercial centres, so people can walk, bike or take the bus to get around.

 

According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, someone living in a typical suburban community will use around three times more energy per year than someone living in an apartment-style building near public transportation."

 

 

A house can be located near public transportation, too. You're conflating externalities that can come with high density neighbourhods, like better public transit.

 

I grew up in a neighbourhood where we had a bakery, a butcher, a corner store, and several convenience stores within a very short walk. We never had to drive to those places. Today, that's not possible in SFD neighbourhoods, and you say that's just the way it is. But I wonder why we can't be more like we once were.

[Mike K.]

Oh man, this was still a great idea in 2014. Today we know the recycling from apartment buildings just ends up in the landfill:

 

Services that improve the environmental performance of a city, such as waste water treatment, recycling, and composting, are all easier when everyone lives close together. Of course, the main benefits to municipal governments are the cost savings and reduced infrastructure investments, but the potential environmental benefits are undeniable.

 

[punk cannonballer]

Here's BC Hydro stats. It states that condo unit use (total) is about $80 per unit after all things considered than $104 for a detached dwelling. Not much right? 1. Still less. 2. Not taking into account all the other efficiencies of condo living as a land use decision.

https://www.bchydro....-april-2019.pdf

[punk cannonballer]

All you can respond is 'hey, I lived close to a butcher and it was great, gee I wish I still could". Lol. Jesus f'n christ. I'm out.

[Mike K.]

^You're giving up after proving my point? Dude, you're in the first 50 meters of the 400 meter race!

 

Here's BC Hydro stats. It states that condo unit use (total) is about $80 per unit after all things considered than $104 for a detached dwelling. Not much right? 1. Still less. 2. Not taking into account all the other efficiencies of condo living as a land use decision.

https://www.bchydro....-april-2019.pdf

 

Now run the numbers through a per-unit occupancy filter. Then add the strata component to that hydro rate.

 

Your link:

 

Despite the suites in newer high-rise buildings often being marketed as energy-efficient and including things like LED lighting and ENERGY STAR® appliances, the combined electricity usage of the overall building is approximately two times more than high rises built in the 1980s, and almost four times more than low-rise buildings built that same decade.

 

 

I hate to break it to you, but your condo isn't saving the world.

[Victoria Watcher]

and punk is out.

[MarkoJ]

That accounts for only 40% of the energy cost of your residence. Strata pays the remaining 60% for the common areas and building systems.

 

At the Encore we spent $70,467.01 last year on Hydro (keep in mind we have a heated pool, gym, amenity room, full time concierge and that number also includes electric car chargers). However, even if we ignore all those things $70,467.01 divided by 166 units divided by 12 months = $35.3 per month.

 

$22 + $35.3 per month is still less than 50% of the most efficient SFH you can build. 

 

I agree condos are inefficient and you can build very efficient SFH homes, but you can't get around some very fundamental problems like SFH is losing heating in 5 different directions (versus a non-corner non-top floor condo is losing heating only in on direction), SFHs are much larger, new SFHs require a lot more infrastructure per unit, on average will require longer commute times, etc., etc.  

 

In my opinion can't really argue that condos aren't far superior in terms of the environment. Once again, back to my Dockside example. A lot of residence there will walk to Save on Foods to buy groceries. Where are you going to walk to from Skirt Mountain (Southpoint) to buy anything? 

Edited by MarkoJ, 19 October 2021 - 02:47 PM.

[Mike K.]

Don't forget the natural gas bill!

 

It sounds like the industry is doing a bad job describing the energy costs of modern multi-unit residential buildings, be they highrise or not (modern lowrises are also energy hogs because they offer so much more in the way of amenities than their 1960s counterparts did, but still less than their taller counterparts of any vintage).

 

Every hallway, every common space, every nook and cranny has to be lit, heated/or cooled 24/7, and the parking area has to be ventilated 24/7, elevators use a lot of energy and are running non-stop, booster pumps are required for water, HVAC units provide constant ventilation for hallways and areas where positive pressure has to be maintained, monitoring systems are actively running throughout, and then there's the hot water system, etc. It all adds up to a massive amount of energy.

[marks_28]

 

Now run the numbers through a per-unit occupancy filter. Then add the strata component to that hydro rate.

 

 

That includes the strata component. 

 

 

In fact, BC Hydro has found that around 50% of these buildings’ electricity use is covered by the common-use account to pay to power these amenities, along with the electricity used to keep these larger buildings lit, heated and cooled all day, every day.

 

If the cost for this appeared on their bill, it could add up to $40 to their monthly electricity costs – nearly doubling the average apartment suite’s bill of $43 dollars. This would bring it much closer to the average single-family home’s bill of $103 per month.

[Nparker]

All. Day. Long. This is quite the tennis match you two have going.

[Victoria Watcher]

I will say that an awful lot of “hallway heating” just ends up lowering individual suite heat bills. They are interior halls that mostly radiate heat to the suites around them.

[Victoria Watcher]

All. Day. Long. This is quite the tennis match you two have going.

It’s epic. Connors McEnroe.

[Nparker]

It’s epic. Connors-McEnroe.

My thoughts exactly.