177 replies to this topic

[Sparky]

Easiest way to kill a thread:

Continue to post without any reference to the thread topic, "sick days" but yet still include a personal jab. I did not delete some of the posts that were marginally off topic. Please stick to the topic of the thread and refrain from personal comments....that's what the private message feature is for. People that are drawn to this thread want to read about "sick days"......not about your displeasure with someone's opinion.

[14 West]

If the whole objective of over a century of post industrial revolution development was that we can now start clawing back the standard of living - then where do I opt out? And; if we are going that route, then why stop with comparing the public service to the private sector, compare yourselves to the workers south of the border, or better yet, with those abroad. It's a slippery slope, if the point is to be equal with the lowest common denominator, then we should be looking to China or India for our employment standards and wages - it has to be 'fair' right?

I am continually shocked how blind people can be and go against their own best interest. Higher wages and benefits only benefit those who are not (yet) lucky enough to have them. How many of us aspire to have less? Instead, jealousy clouds judgement, so instead of "we should work towards having that too" the argument becomes, "if I can't, no one should." Average Public servants are not rich, every discretionary dollar they make keeps everything else in business. As it has been noted earlier this is a significant portion of the economy, take those jobs away and everyone hurts. What do you suppose would replace those jobs? More Tim Hortons, more McJobs? Take a look at volunteer organizations or ask around your kids soccer club and find out how many of the volunteers are Public servants, bet you'd find it is the majority (this is my anecdotal observation). What do you think people are doing on flex days or with shorter work weeks, sitting around on their thumb? Take those away, take away the volunteers.

Whatever happened to the rising tide that is supposed to float all the boats? It's not that we can't afford it. Perhaps if our monetary system had some tangible associated value to finite resources that would be a valid argument, but it just isn't true, we can print it as we see fit. The real issue is some people are making billions off those finite resources meanwhile convincing the average bloke that his buddy should have no benefits, less vacation, and no flex days and that this will somehow benefit society. It's almost as if people have forgotten history and are content to go backwards.

[PulpVictor]

If the whole objective of over a century of post industrial revolution development was that we can now start clawing back the standard of living - then where do I opt out? And; if we are going that route, then why stop with comparing the public service to the private sector, compare yourselves to the workers south of the border, or better yet, with those abroad. It's a slippery slope, if the point is to be equal with the lowest common denominator, then we should be looking to China or India for our employment standards and wages - it has to be 'fair' right?

I am continually shocked how blind people can be and go against their own best interest. Higher wages and benefits only benefit those who are not (yet) lucky enough to have them. How many of us aspire to have less? Instead, jealousy clouds judgement, so instead of "we should work towards having that too" the argument becomes, "if I can't, no one should." Average Public servants are not rich, every discretionary dollar they make keeps everything else in business. As it has been noted earlier this is a significant portion of the economy, take those jobs away and everyone hurts. What do you suppose would replace those jobs? More Tim Hortons, more McJobs? Take a look at volunteer organizations or ask around your kids soccer club and find out how many of the volunteers are Public servants, bet you'd find it is the majority (this is my anecdotal observation). What do you think people are doing on flex days or with shorter work weeks, sitting around on their thumb? Take those away, take away the volunteers.

Whatever happened to the rising tide that is supposed to float all the boats? It's not that we can't afford it. Perhaps if our monetary system had some tangible associated value to finite resources that would be a valid argument, but it just isn't true, we can print it as we see fit. The real issue is some people are making billions off those finite resources meanwhile convincing the average bloke that his buddy should have no benefits, less vacation, and no flex days and that this will somehow benefit society. It's almost as if people have forgotten history and are content to go backwards.

Your argument is flawed, because a bloated public service is paid for by the private sector. The economic driver these days is small business, and many small businesses can't afford to pay sick days, or flex days, and some of them can't even keep the lights on. Drive around Victoria and see the may 'for lease' signs. I am not in favour of going backwards, however, I am in favour of cutting waste. 5/8ths of the working people in Victoria work in government, and there are more public pensions (in all of Canada) being paid into than private. It is simply NOT sustainable. If it takes 32 permits to get the 'Hippo Bus' floated in Victoria, that is a whole lot of people pushing a whole lot of paper around to make it happen.

I don't want to see our country fail. I want to see stream lined government.

[14 West]

If a business can't support living wages and benefits that everyone would agree are good for society (such as sick days and appropriate time off) - then perhaps the biggest problem is that we think these are businesses worth having at all, or that the values we place in the economy are entirely wrong. So instead of getting rid of these things, why don't we examine the economy and revamp things in the best interest of the majority of the people so these things can continue to exist and thrive? This might involve things like not shipping production off to the lowest common denominator in terms of wages and quality, and perhaps switching the focus back to quality of life and community instead of consumption and acquisition of the most amount of goods in the shortest time possible.

[PulpVictor]

If a business can't support living wages and benefits that everyone would agree are good for society (such as sick days and appropriate time off) - then perhaps the biggest problem is that we think these are businesses worth having at all, or that the values we place in the economy are entirely wrong. So instead of getting rid of these things, why don't we examine the economy and revamp things in the best interest of the majority of the people so these things can continue to exist and thrive? This might involve things like not shipping production off to the lowest common denominator in terms of wages and quality, and perhaps switching the focus back to quality of life and community instead of consumption and acquisition of the most amount of goods in the shortest time possible.

Spoken like a true public servant, most of whom are now the middle class. Yes, please do examine the economy. Without those businesses that you think are expedient, you would very likely not have a job.

[Doggier]

Whatever happened to the rising tide that is supposed to float all the boats? It's not that we can't afford it. Perhaps if our monetary system had some tangible associated value to finite resources that would be a valid argument, but it just isn't true, we can print it as we see fit. The real issue is some people are making billions off those finite resources meanwhile convincing the average bloke that his buddy should have no benefits, less vacation, and no flex days and that this will somehow benefit society. It's almost as if people have forgotten history and are content to go backwards.

Agreed.

People try to make interesting correlations between fair pay and benefits for gov workers and the ability of their own business to be profitable. The reality is that the average working person is the one buying the goods and services that keep small businesses afloat. If their business is marginal, I would suggest that a hateful attitude towards their clients may be a larger contributor to their situation than is the impact of benefits afforded public servants.

"blowing out someone else's candle does not make your own glow brighter."

I personally prefer to support local companies and feel it is the right thing to do. But if I perceive them as attacking my brother or my neighbor based on the benefits they enjoy, then that business looses my alegence.

I perceive the taxpayers fed as an organization bent on blowing out candles and for that reason try not to support affiliated companies. I would also avoid anyone affiliated with Canadian Federation of Independant Business, but they are sly enough to hide their membership.

In the end what I'm saying is that if you are self employed, then it behooves you to speak kindly of your clients and look for the value in the benefits they enjoy. Those benefits create opportunities for them to purchase your goods ad services be it directly or indirectly.

Let's all encourage a rising tide so that we can all have our boats floated.

[PulpVictor]

Agreed.

People try to make interesting correlations between fair pay and benefits for gov workers and the ability of their own business to be profitable. The reality is that the average working person is the one buying the goods and services that keep small businesses afloat. If their business is marginal, I would suggest that a hateful attitude towards their clients may be a larger contributor to their situation than is the impact of benefits afforded public servants.



"blowing out someone else's candle does not make your own glow brighter."

I personally prefer to support local companies and feel it is the right thing to do. But if I perceive them as attacking my brother or my neighbor based on the benefits they enjoy, then that business looses my alegence.

I perceive the taxpayers fed as an organization bent on blowing out candles and for that reason try not to support affiliated companies. I would also avoid anyone affiliated with Canadian Federation of Independant Business, but they are sly enough to hide their membership.

In the end what I'm saying is that if you are self employed, then it behooves you to speak kindly of your clients and look for the value in the benefits they enjoy. Those benefits create opportunities for them to purchase your goods ad services be it directly or indirectly.

Let's all encourage a rising tide so that we can all have our boats floated.

Wow. That is some convoluted logic. First, do you wear an armband when you go shopping for your goods or services that identifies you as a public servant? How in the world would anyone know and treat you badly because of it? Second, the world's economy is a train wreck. If businesses are marginal (and even some that aren't) go under, who is going to be most affected? Not public servants. Talk about blowing out candles! Thank God for the Taxpayers Federation and the CFIB...business owners are clearly outnumbered by public servants, at least in Victoria.

The way things are now is simply unsustainable. Period.

[Doggier]

Wow. That is some convoluted logic. First, do you wear an armband when you go shopping for your goods or services that identifies you as a public servant? How in the world would anyone know and treat you badly because of it? Second, the world's economy is a train wreck. If businesses are marginal (and even some that aren't) go under, who is going to be most affected? Not public servants. Talk about blowing out candles! Thank God for the Taxpayers Federation and the CFIB...business owners are clearly outnumbered by public servants, at least in Victoria.

The way things are now is simply unsustainable. Period.

Interesting, armbands are more closely associated with your end of the political spectrum than mine. But that's not how you would identify your opinion the majority of the time. It's when you talk to friends, associates, and others in all sorts of formal and informal venues, including ones like these.

I'm advocating tolerance especially on topics where you have limited capacity to voice a meaningful opinion. It helps prevent you from self identifying as angry or hateful. Just an opinion on my part and how I chose to live my life.

BTW, I'm not a public servant, ... self employed and happy to be.

[PulpVictor]

Interesting, armbands are more closely associated with your end of the political spectrum than mine. But that's not how you would identify your opinion the majority of the time. It's when you talk to friends, associates, and others in all sorts of formal and informal venues, including ones like these.

I'm advocating tolerance especially on topics where you have limited capacity to voice a meaningful opinion. It helps prevent you from self identifying as angry or hateful. Just an opinion on my part and how I chose to live my life.

BTW, I'm not a public servant, ... self employed and happy to be.

And, which end of the spectrum do you assume I am on? I am only on the side of fiscal responsibility. I loathe waste, especially when I see so many people struggling. Tell me please, what is that limits my capacity? There are so many insults flung around in this place.

The people who are suffering the most in this dreadful economy are the already marginalized, the ones that the Left is supposed to be on the side of. The left here is on the side of themselves... For you, or for anyone who thinks that wasteful government is alright, look around you...from up in that ivory tower.

[14 West]

Hey Pulp, why do you feel the need to go ahead, make assumptions and personalize your argument against me and others? Stick to a principled argument, not name calling over the internet.

That said, the idea of loathing waste.. there is nothing more wasteful then people who are in the upper class hoarding away cash into investment funds that do nothing for society. I would sooner have 100 lazy public servants sitting on their thumbs all day because at least I know 100% of their income returns to the economy in the form of goods and services they purchase. Then there is the other side of the argument - if those jobs don't exist, what are those people supposed to do? I think it is clear that our biggest problem is that there are not enough meaningful jobs out there compared to people that need them. Which also explains why people call in sick - if most jobs suck, is it no wonder?

Overall - the biggest issue is the fact that our current economic system defies nature, it depends on continual growth, yet everyone knows ALL resources on the planet are finite. Your system or mine, we are still screwed unless we take on the biggest issue - over consumption - which again brings me back to the beginning... Maybe if we all had more time off, we'd have more time to walk or bike to work, we'd have more time to fix stuff rather then just buy cheap expendable crap, maybe we'd have more time to recreate and make community and learn to understand our fellow man rather than watching garbage television programming, being enamored with celebrity lifestyles and focusing on cutting each other down.

I think some small business owners get it - I certainly do - they realize the people who are coming into their store to buy a couch/snowboard/car/pint/dinner probably aren't the same people serving them their double-double.

[PulpVictor]

Hey Pulp, why do you feel the need to go ahead, make assumptions and personalize your argument against me and others? Stick to a principled argument, not name calling over the internet.

I have NEVER made assumptions, or called ANYONE names. My argument IS principled. You haven't bothered to absorb it

[PulpVictor]

I am, however, a bit put off by your denigration of fast food workers. They have no pensions, likely not much of a future, but they pay their taxes. I wonder how many sick days a double double server gets?

[sdwright.vic]

I teach pre-school... get no sick days... so go to work when I shouldn't and make my kids sick because I can not afford to take the day off even when I should. Not only making the kids sick but also my co-workers, who also can not call in sick.

[Doggier]

I think some small business owners get it - I certainly do - they realize the people who are coming into their store to buy a couch/snowboard/car/pint/dinner probably aren't the same people serving them their double-double.

I took your point here to be one of support for people who serve coffee. In order for some small businesses to be viable they must rely on employees who are willing, or compelled, to work for less than a living wage. This is unsustainable and ironic as these same employees are unable to afford the very products they work for. Hardly denigration. Perhaps empathy.

I don't know the solution but I'm certain that it will not be found by reducing all workers to this level.

[Doggier]

I teach pre-school... get no sick days... so go to work when I shouldn't and make my kids sick because I can not afford to take the day off even when I should. Not only making the kids sick but also my co-workers, who also can not call in sick.

This has to be one of the most under-appreciated and under-funded roles in our society.

[sdwright.vic]

This has to be one of the most under-appreciated and under-funded roles in our society.

Cheers man!

[SamCB]

That said, the idea of loathing waste.. there is nothing more wasteful then people who are in the upper class hoarding away cash into investment funds that do nothing for society.

I find this statement absurd. Investing in companies gives the companies money. Money is required to grow businesses. They can provide more services, employ more people, and pay more taxes so you can sit on your thumb and dream of the ideal utopian society you long for while collecting a welfare cheque. Or student loans. Or health care. Or biking on paved roads. What you don't realize is that all government services are paid for with other people's money. There is no other way. If those businesses stop making money, the government stops providing services. Taxes come from somewhere outside of the government. Private enterprise is the engine. It's the hand that feeds. I assure you it's not the other way around.

I think it is clear that our biggest problem is that there are not enough meaningful jobs out there compared to people that need them. Which also explains why people call in sick - if most jobs suck, is it no wonder?

Where do you think jobs come from? The answer is not government.

PulpVictor is right... we have an unsustainable system. Victoria's economy is built on other people's money. Taxes from the rest of BC are the only thing keeping this city afloat. There is no way to legislate more wealth for ourselves.

[Sparky]

Welcome to vibrantvictoria 14 West. Please read the following post that I will share with everyone.

[Sparky]

I know that some of you think that the moderation on this thread is heavy handed. I also know that some of you come to these threads to gain insight into the topic at hand.

If one was to start posting about how cute the puppies were in the Christmas Parade.....but posted this in the Victoria Crime thread....we would have to moderate that as well.

Here is the key.

If you want to have an in depth discussion about another person's point of view, make darn sure it's ON TOPIC. This thread is about the use of sick days.....which is a topic that I am interested in and would like to absorb other people's opinion on the topic.

Plowing through someone's rant that has nothing to do with the topic is not what I came here for.

Here are the guidelines that the owners of this forum have written for all of us. You will find this right above the little window where you type in your posts.

This thread is for discussion on the project named in the title of the thread only. Posts which are off-topic will be subject to deletion by the moderators. This is to ensure the quality of the discussion and to keep the thread focused on it's topic.

Please post with thoughtfulness. If you would like to discuss a topic other than what is allowed in this thread then please find the appropriate section elsewhere in the forum.

It's Sunday.....be nice.

[PulpVictor]

I find this statement absurd. Investing in companies gives the companies money. Money is required to grow businesses. They can provide more services, employ more people, and pay more taxes so you can sit on your thumb and dream of the ideal utopian society you long for while collecting a welfare cheque. Or student loans. Or health care. Or biking on paved roads. What you don't realize is that all government services are paid for with other people's money. There is no other way. If those businesses stop making money, the government stops providing services. Taxes come from somewhere outside of the government. Private enterprise is the engine. It's the hand that feeds. I assure you it's not the other way around.



Where do you think jobs come from? The answer is not government.

PulpVictor is right... we have an unsustainable system. Victoria's economy is built on other people's money. Taxes from the rest of BC are the only thing keeping this city afloat. There is no way to legislate more wealth for ourselves.

Someone on VV agrees with me? Thanks.