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Should Government Street become a pedestrian boulevard?

Government st Poll Pedestrian new urbanism Government street pedestrian mall

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Poll: Should Government street become a pedestrian boulevard (91 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Government street become a pedestrian boulevard from Yates street to Humbolt street (Allowing restricted single lane traffic)?

  1. Yes (55 votes [60.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 60.44%

  2. No (24 votes [26.37%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.37%

  3. Depends (12 votes [13.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.19%

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#441 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 07:42 AM

we get about 800mm of rain. tofino gets 3200. we might be technically out if the rainforest but it’s hard to know what vegetation was here before. mt. doug park looks rainforesty. especially for the east side of the city. but that might be the mountain effect.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 10 February 2019 - 07:43 AM.


#442 Cassidy

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 07:44 AM

Nothing "duelling" about it ... Victoria is located smack dab in the middle of a temperate rainforest .. just as I noted.

I could link to 100 other maps having nothing to do with Wiki that showed exactly the same thing ... but see little point in doing so.

 

The poster said "The CoV is not rainforest", which is a patently false statement, and required immediate correction.

Climate classification and type of forest aren't remotely the same thing ... but then you knew that ... didn't you?



#443 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 07:53 AM


similarly there are lots of very old oaks in oak bay but i’m not sure that means past generations cut down all the evergreens 🌲 and left the oaks. the peninsula farms were not likely fir forest. ditto blenkinsop valley that’s the other side of mt. doug. broadmead has a mix of trees.

#444 Cassidy

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 07:55 AM

we get about 800mm of rain. tofino gets 3200. we might be technically out if the rainforest but it’s hard to know what vegetation was here before. mt. doug park looks rainforesty. especially for the east side of the city. but that might be the mountain effect.

 

It's not really a subjective judgement that invites internet pundits to re-define what a temperate rainforest actually is.

 

A temperate rainforest is a "real thing", and we're all living in the middle of one.

It's that "science" thing.


Edited by Cassidy, 10 February 2019 - 07:56 AM.


#445 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:01 AM

I see a few maps that exclude victoria .

#446 Cassidy

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:04 AM

I see a few maps that exclude victoria

Really?

Link to them please.

 

While you're working on that, I'll offer this:

  • A "temperate rainforest" describes an organic ecosystem.
  • A "climate classification" describes seasonal precipitation and temperature patterns.

 

They are two entirely different things, describing two entirely different aspects of earth science.

Sometimes confused on internet message boards (apparently) because they happen to share a couple of the same markers (amount of rainfall for example). 



#447 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:11 AM

cause and effect though right?

While you're working on that, I'll offer this:
A "temperate rainforest" describes an organic ecosystem.
A "climate classification" describes seasonal precipitation and temperature patterns.

the organic ecosystem fails to materialize if the climate is not there to support it. Ie. oak bay.

#448 Cassidy

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:11 AM

Here's six maps demonstrating my point, and clearly showing Victoria as being in the middle of a temperate rainforest.

When you can link to six maps which effectively dispute my point, I'll concede that point.

Until then ... you're just plain wrong.

 

 

https://www.scienced...717305773#f0005

https://www.duckster...orest_biome.php

http://w3.marietta.e...es/temprain.htm

http://geoassigntemp...orestation.html

https://temperaterai...ic-factors.html

https://awallpapersj...forest-map.html



#449 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:15 AM

http://www.hww.ca/as...-rainforest.pdf

 

i'm not going to find 6.  there is one from a forest company it excludes the peninsula and parts of the east coast like the cowichan valley that are clearly not and never have been heavily coniferous forested.



#450 Cassidy

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:29 AM

Excludes the peninsula? ... are you kidding me?

Your blurry map doesn't even begin to support your point.

 

Examples of a temperate rainforest on the Saanich Peninsula you can see with your own eyes:

  • John Dean Park (temperate rainforest)
  • Horth Hill park (temperate rainforest)
  • Willis Point (temperate rainforest)
  • Gowland Todd (temperate rainforest)
  • Thetis Lake (temperate rainforest)
  • Mount Doug Park (temperate rainforest)
  • Elk/Beaver Lake Parks (temperate rainforest)
  • The entire Highlands municipality (temperate rainforest)

 

Just because they build houses, cleared land, and otherwise developed what would become the CRD and surrounds doesn't mean it's no longer a temperate rainforest!

Left to its own devices, a couple of hundred years from now, with no human interference, this area would all look exactly like Mount Doug Park ... a classic temperate rainforest.


Edited by Cassidy, 10 February 2019 - 08:30 AM.


#451 Nparker

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:33 AM

Regardless of what label one applies to our climate, the fact is that for at least 6 months of the year, very few people are going to want to spend much time lounging on a 5 block strip of Government Street. Closing this section to vehicular traffic is not going to change that. In addition, once you strip away the summer tourists, as others have already noted, there is simply not enough population to warrant yet another "people space". The city is already littered with such places and I am not sure why anyone thinks we need more.


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#452 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:37 AM

did we really remove all the fir trees? and leave so many oaks?

#453 Mattjvd

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:17 AM

Nothing "duelling" about it ... Victoria is located smack dab in the middle of a temperate rainforest .. just as I noted.
I could link to 100 other maps having nothing to do with Wiki that showed exactly the same thing ... but see little point in doing so.

The poster said "The CoV is not rainforest", which is a patently false statement, and required immediate correction.
Climate classification and type of forest aren't remotely the same thing ... but then you knew that ... didn't you?


Rainforest is also used (colloquially) to describe several köppen climate zones. Referring to climate zone is obviously much more relevant that what type of tree grows near by in a disscussion about outdoor patio seating...

All those old European cities that aren't located "smack dab in the middle of a temperate rainforest" have patio seating because cedar trees and ferns don't grow near by? Or because they have temperatures and precipitation levels that attract outdoor seating? If you meant the latter, you are talking about climate zone.

#454 Cassidy

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:38 AM

Rainforest is also used (colloquially) to describe several köppen climate zones

Once again for clarity, one set of metrics determine and describes climate, while the other set of metrics describe a biome ... two fundamentally different things.

 

​Included in that description of a biome which references "rainforest" is a metric which describes how much rain falls in a given period of time ... which was precisely the point of my original reference ... the one you attempted to correct by stating quite clearly (and quite incorrectly) that "The CoV is not rainforest"


Edited by Cassidy, 10 February 2019 - 10:39 AM.


#455 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:44 AM

random interesting note. ladner has very similar rainfall as us. 1/2 of vancouver.

back to government st. what is happening with sam’s deli and hot doggity 🌭 dog gone? something new for this spring?

#456 Mike K.

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:47 AM

All that being said, it rains far, far, far more in the Sooke Hills and above the reservoir catchment areas that we oftentimes mistake Victoria’s dry weather on a specific date as dry weather on the entire south Island. It could be pouring and miserable in the hills and sunny down in the city.

But I tell ya, when you walk through local forested parks it sure feels rain foresty.

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#457 Bob Fugger

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:49 AM

The spaces are being advertised for lease as retail space. So probably another tourist crapatorium or three will take root there.

https://www.colliers...30#.XGByGKR6olQ
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#458 aastra

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:10 AM

Methinks Government Street's main issue re: possibly succeeding as a part-time pedestrian boulevard is that it isn't in the middle of things. Ideally it would have quite a few more people immediately to the west and many more people immediately to the north.

 

Can I observe yet again how ironic it is that many Victorians seem to want the trappings and amenities and atmosphere of a densely populated (European-ish) city, even though they don't want the dense population that makes such things feasible? It should follow that anyone who sincerely wants Government Street to be a successful pedestrian boulevard would also be pushing hard for new apartments and offices west of Government Street (for example, at the Customs House or on the Wharf Street parking lots or on the Northern Junk site), and north of the old town (for example, in the Rock Bay area).


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#459 MarkoJ

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:19 AM

I don't know if it is just density....I was just in Taiwan is some super densely populated neighbourhoods a few weeks ago and it wasn't packed on the streets/common meeting areas. Maybe it is just a cultural thing in Europe where people like to go out and meet their friends, etc. Or maybe people don't like the pollution in Taiwan, who knows.


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#460 aastra

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:35 AM

I agree, I don't think it's *just* density and nothing but. There are other aspects. For example, the nature of the district, the style of the architecture, the presence of tourists, etc. No doubt this is why we're even having the conversation about a pedestrian boulevard: because Government Street scores well in certain aspects.

 

Here's the thing: we know for certain that a "car free" day can work even on a very unlikely street. But making it work every day, all day (or for most of the day), for the entire summer is something different. Novelty wears off. Then what? What's the draw supposed to be going forward? Where's the necessary critical mass going to come from to make it work even on a cold & rainy summer day?

 

Anyway, I feel the same way about this as I do about the bike lanes. Just spend some money and do the experiment and find out for certain. Do it well, that is. Not in some deliberately half-assed way so that the debate can be prolonged for another few decades. Install some bollards, establish some sensible closure times, encourage the activation of the street by the businesses along it (in other words, don't ding them and milk them every which way for trying to make it work), and then see what happens.


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