85 replies to this topic

[tedward]

You may need a broader definition of "desperate."  You're treating it as if it can only be transitory, momentary while discounting the possibliity that desperation can be ongoing and continuous.

 

As usual Mike K. simply chooses a convenient definition that supports his pre-determined conclusion and runs with his straw man argument.

 

Don't let the door hit you on your way out. Anyone who defends gun-toting robbers as merely "desperate" is not worthy of the time it takes me to recoil from their posts.

 

See, when you argue straw men fallacy you can say really dumb things. Things like describing someone as "deserate" is somehow defending their actions.  

It is really hard to solve a problem if we are not allowed to actually discuss all the factors involved. IMO if we could alleviate the conditions that make people desperate then we would reduce crime far more effectively and economically than hiring more cops and sending more people to jail.

[Mike K.]

So if I understand things correctly, when one side of the debate runs out of counter arguments the straw man excuse is the last result? If you disagree with me, let's discuss the issue, but don't tell me my opinions are invalid because you don't like what I have to say.

 

I'm not baiting anyone, I'm responding to our mayor's statement regarding an armed robbery. She was not invited to speak on CFAX to discuss the reasons behind criminal activity, she was invited to address an armed robbery that had taken place in a marijuana dispensary (an issue that in and of itself is ruffling feathers throughout the community).

 

She refers to robberies as being the result of desperation. I disagree with that blanket statement and feel it is unnecessarily dismissive of a very serious incident that occurred at the dispensary. Clearly she has a social services agenda and her latest statements play into that agenda.

 

I disagree that two armed men storming a business, legal or not, with guns at the ready, tying up the employees and making off with money and drugs/medicine (however you want to describe it) in a getaway vehicle is the work of desperate individuals. This was a planned, targeted hit that took resources and planning to execute. You're free to think this was an act of desperation resulting from poverty, and you have every right to think that way, but I don't, and I wish we could be adults about our difference of opinion.

[Benezet]

It would appear we need a definition of "desperate" that can be agreed upon.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=PZKoW8eFiNw

[Mike K.]

Or we could use the official definition of the word:
 

Feeling, showing, or involving a hopeless sense that a situation is so bad as to be impossible to deal with.

[Greg]

Does "desperation" apply to white collar crime as well? If someone were accused of embezzlement or insider trading, would a city official be on the radio discussing "desperation?" What is the threshold for treating general societal ills as a contributory factor in a crime? If it does not apply to all crimes, then it must be legitimate to discuss for which crimes it can be reasonably applied and for which it can not, right?

[tedward]

^^ Great MIke, now show me where that definition includes anything about being urgent or transitory. Show me how that definition somehow precludes planning and deliberation in the execution of actions.

You do not seem to understand that desperation for a large number of people is an ongoing condition. A large percentage of criminals commit crimes because they see no better way forward. You and I may see better options but they do not.

[Mike K.]

Yes, all of which is true. But I have a problem with my mayor citing desperation as the reason for an armed robbery.

Should could have/should have elaborated, but she didn't, and given her track record of intense alarmism over homeless issues I see this as yet another attempt to instill fear.

Nothing galvanizes people into action like a threat, a threat of building a homeless camp in Topaz Park, the threat that if we don't act fast desperation will lead to a frenzy of violent crime.

[tedward]

Yes, all of which is true. But I have a problem with my mayor citing desperation as the reason for an armed robbery.

 

Now you are just being silly. If it is all true then what she said was fine. You want her to say something different and go against the truth?!?!

 

You want her to make up an alternative reason?  Bored and looking for extreme adrenaline rush? Voices in their head told them to do it? Or the actual theory she was answering, that they are simply "bad" people?

 

And we are back to the beginning...

[Mike K.]

I'm accepting of the fact that there are instances where people act out or break the law due to desperation. Obviously this happens. Obviously we don't live in a world with rigid rules with only one single motivator behind a certain activity.

 

But I disagree that speaking in general terms, and that's what Helps was doing, good people do bad things out of desperation, period. That's nonsense. You can argue until you're blue in the face but my opinion of her assessment of that robbery and other criminal activity will not change.

[spanky123]

I'm accepting of the fact that there are instances where people act out or break the law due to desperation. Obviously this happens. Obviously we don't live in a world with rigid rules with only one single motivator behind a certain activity.

 

But I disagree that speaking in general terms, and that's what Helps was doing, good people do bad things out of desperation, period. That's nonsense. You can argue until you're blue in the face but my opinion of her assessment of that robbery and other criminal activity will not change.

 

My take is the same as yours Mike in that the Mayor is attempting to relate the robbery to homelessness and help further her own political agenda in the matter by suggesting that by allocating her the $50M she has asked for violent crime will be reduced.

[tedward]

So now homelessness, desperation and crime rates are all unrelated and share no root causes nor solutions?

 

Good thing you two weren't elected mayor or councilors.

[Mike K.]

What you're trying to insinuate is that homelessness invariably leads to criminal activity. I would wager that most homeless individuals in our community would find your opinion quite insulting and consider it as yet another obstacle to overcome.

 

We too often confuse homeless persons with the street community. Those are two very different groups of individuals and often mutually exclusive of one another. One group is struggling to make ends meet but has no desire whatsoever to resort to crime to do so, and one is governed by an addiction/substance abuse problem with little regard for what is right and what is wrong when funds to sustain that addiction dry up.

[LJ]

tedward, on 02 Nov 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

^^ Great MIke, now show me where that definition includes anything about being urgent or transitory. Show me how that definition somehow precludes planning and deliberation in the execution of actions.

You do not seem to understand that desperation for a large number of people is an ongoing condition. A large percentage of criminals commit crimes because they see no better way forward. You and I may see better options but they do not.

I don't think this robbery was an act of desperate people at all. This was a crime motivated by greed/profit. Also maybe to send a message to retailers that they are cutting into the core business of some not so nice folks. Do you think the mafia members are desperate? They certainly don't appear so driving around in their Cadillac's. What about the Hell's Angels? For some people robbing and stealing is what they do, you get up in the morning and go to the office, these guys get up and plan another hit. I'm afraid this particular incident cannot play into the Mayors narrative.

Now if you get your bike stolen, your car window smashed for the couple of toonies in the ashtray, then you are talking in the correct genre of folks.  

[tedward]

What you're trying to insinuate is that homelessness invariably leads to criminal activity.

 

Oh FFS just stop making **** up. NOT what I said at all.

 

Homelessness and criminal activity share several root causes. Your "tough on criminals" approach does not work, has never worked and will never work. We must do what we can as a society to eliminate or ameliorate the root causes to reduce crime rates. 

You do understand that this is why developed nations with better social safety nets generally have much lower crime rates?

Edited by tedward, 03 November 2015 - 10:00 AM.

[Mike K.]

So criminal activity is not associated with homelessness.

I think we're all in agreement now.

And if we're talking about severe drug addiction leading to crime, then we're most definitely going to be in agreement as well.

[Mike K.]

Tomorrow afternoon the chief will be presenting a ppan to address mental health issues on the streets of Victoria.

[Bingo]

Tomorrow afternoon the chief will be presenting a ppan to address mental health issues on the streets of Victoria.

 

Good plan.

Mental health on the streets of Victoria needed to be addressed a few decades ago, but talk is cheap we need action.

[Mike K.]

We've heard very little from and about Mayor Helps in recent months.

I mean the city is facing serious issues and we're not hearing much.

[sdwright.vic]

Yeah... it's almost like she is staying out of the public spotlight on purpose. Even no news interviews.

[Mike K.]

Considering the Mad As Hell group's venue, Harbour Towers Hotel, has received threats and cancelled the event in its conference space Mayor Helps should offer the council chambers for the meeting.

At the very least she must publicly denounce the threats, not just in a media interview, and assure us that VicPD will do its best to track down the individual(s) resposible.