4864 replies to this topic

[JoshRH]

Be open to rejecting contemporary science on the basis that it offends someones ideology or I'm close minded. 

 

Got it. 

[Benezet]

Most of the scientists of that time also agreed that the earth was flat and laughed and insulted (and worse) those that didn't agree...

Name one.

[Edit] https://en.m.wikiped..._the_flat_Earth

Edited by Benezet, 22 September 2016 - 07:13 PM.

[LJ]

The scientific and medical communities agree that substance use disorders are a mental illness, but stating that as a fact puts me right up there with members of the Flat Earth Society? 

 

You can't make this stuff up...

I think most folks on this forum are in agreement with the statement "drug addiction is a mental illness". The divide occurs with what to do about it. For the drug dependent the mental illness began with using drugs. If they had never started using drugs they would not have a mental illness. Therefore if you make it very difficult to obtain drugs a lot of people will never try them and become drug dependent or mentally ill.

For drug abusers (not dependent) rehab and lifestyle changes can cure their mental illness. Enabling and easing the use of drugs does not do anything to mitigate the mental illness, all it does is prolong the ordeal.

Lastly you should stop passing yourself off as the lone bastion of scientific and medical knowledge, you're not. Most everyone on this forum can read and interpret data for themselves and like every other subject discussed here, everybody has their own viewpoint sometimes colored by their own experiences or those of people they know. They are all as equally valid as your's is and most of them know how to add to a discussion without alienating everyone else. 

[JoshRH]

Sorry bud, but I have never claimed to be the "lone bastion of scientific and medical knowledge".

There have been multiple posters in this thread that have repeatedly dismissed the idea that substance use disorders are a mental illness.

Not every viewpoint is equally valid. Some people are right, some people are wrong. For example, if I said, "for the drug dependant the mental illness began with using drugs", I would be wrong.

[LJ]

Well the National Institute on Drug Abuse would disagree with you, but then, apparently, you are just another lay person spouting whatever you wish.

 

https://www.drugabus...-mental-illness

[LeoVictoria]

I think most folks on this forum are in agreement with the statement "drug addiction is a mental illness". The divide occurs with what to do about it. For the drug dependent the mental illness began with using drugs. If they had never started using drugs they would not have a mental illness. Therefore if you make it very difficult to obtain drugs a lot of people will never try them and become drug dependent or mentally ill.

 

Oh right, I forgot about the proven success of prohibition.  

Edited by LeoVictoria, 22 September 2016 - 08:09 PM.

[LeoVictoria]

Most of the scientists of that time also agreed that the earth was flat and laughed and insulted (and worse) those that didn't agree. The point is, it's important to keep an open mind.

 

Thank you for giving an excellent example of the quality of the arguments against scientific findings that are common here.  

However it does give me another opportunity to post my favourite song about having an open mind.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg

 

PS:  666 posts!

Edited by LeoVictoria, 22 September 2016 - 08:20 PM.

[RFS]

The "science" you are quoting is not exactly what one would consider a hard science. More of a social science and much more open to debate. Let's also not forget that many of the "experts" in this field have a vested interest in it as poverty pimps. It's like asking the tobacco industry for the facts on lung cancer

[RFS]

And as someone has already posted, whether or not these people have a mental condition is pure semantics. Whether they are a danger to themselves and the general public is an observable fact, and mentally ill or not, low barrier "zero eviction" policies and a police force that has been effectively neutered is not what Victoria needs. Basic common sense like keeping drug and criminal activity away from elementary and middle schools has been lost in Victoria. The PC feel good policies of helps' and Josh's ilk are making things worse and less safe. The inmates have the keys as it were

[A Girl is No one]

Name one.

[Edit] https://en.m.wikiped..._the_flat_Earth

I stand corrected...

[zoomer]

Mental health is far from an exact science, so let's not pretend it's so clear cut. Remember when psychiatry deemed homosexuality as a mental disorder?! Wide spread use of electro shock therapy? The many tragic diagnosises and treatments in mental asylums of the past - these were all based on the best 'science' at the time.

Today are we not seeing an over diagnosis of mental illness and subsequent expensive treatment involving highly paid psychologists, psychiatrists, not to mention the insanely profitable drug industry which has a pill for every affliction. Funny how some people have such faith in our capitalist science/medical establishment, but then distrust all other aspects of the capitalist society. Why would they be any better or pure than the bankers especially in a field (unlike chemistry or physics) where there are few absolute truths.

Classification of mental disorders is constantly changing, is not entirely based on science, but also culture, politics, and profit. Interesting article here if you'd like to read more:

http://www.nhs.uk/ne...tment-dsm5.aspx

Edited by zoomer, 22 September 2016 - 10:10 PM.

[Sparky]

^^^^^ Great 666th post LV.

[spanky123]

The "science" you are quoting is not exactly what one would consider a hard science. More of a social science and much more open to debate. Let's also not forget that many of the "experts" in this field have a vested interest in it as poverty pimps. It's like asking the tobacco industry for the facts on lung cancer

 

One point that is not open to debate is that the rates of mental illness in North America far exceed the rest of the world at about 27% of the population. What is interesting is that Japan, which has probably the worst economy in the developed world, has a mental illness rate of about 6%. Stats are from the WHO.

[JoshRH]

One point that is not open to debate is that the rates of mental illness in North America far exceed the rest of the world at about 27% of the population. What is interesting is that Japan, which has probably the worst economy in the developed world, has a mental illness rate of about 6%. Stats are from the WHO.

I wonder if that has anything to do with the well-documented stigmatization of mental illness in Japan?

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24118217

 

As for, "probably has the worst economy in the developed world", no. Not by any wild stretch of the imagination. 

[spanky123]

I wonder if that has anything to do with the well-documented stigmatization of mental illness in Japan?

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24118217

 

As for, "probably has the worst economy in the developed world", no. Not by any wild stretch of the imagination. 

 

Japan's debt to GDP ratio is about 250% which is about double anyone else.

 

If you think that the Japanese have a reason not to be mentally ill then take the Ukraine and Lebanon where you would think that they do. The mental illness rates there are the second highest in the world behind NA at about 21%.

Edited by spanky123, 23 September 2016 - 05:54 AM.

[JoshRH]

Mental health is far from an exact science, so let's not pretend it's so clear cut. Remember when psychiatry deemed homosexuality as a mental disorder?! Wide spread use of electro shock therapy? The many tragic diagnosises and treatments in mental asylums of the past - these were all based on the best 'science' at the time.

Today are we not seeing an over diagnosis of mental illness and subsequent expensive treatment involving highly paid psychologists, psychiatrists, not to mention the insanely profitable drug industry which has a pill for every affliction. Funny how some people have such faith in our capitalist science/medical establishment, but then distrust all other aspects of the capitalist society. Why would they be any better or pure than the bankers especially in a field (unlike chemistry or physics) where there are few absolute truths.

Classification of mental disorders is constantly changing, is not entirely based on science, but also culture, politics, and profit. Interesting article here if you'd like to read more:

http://www.nhs.uk/ne...tment-dsm5.aspx

"The DSM-5 makes it clear that this decline goes beyond that usually associated with ageing. Despite this, the concept of mild cognitive disorder has been attacked. The main criticism is that there is little in the way of effective treatment for MCD, but if people are diagnosed with the condition it may cause needless stress and anxiety. People diagnosed with MCD may worry that they will go on to develop dementia, when this may not be the case, critics argue."

 

This pretty much sums up the tone of the criticism. It's not based on contradicting science, it's based on "we shouldn't diagnose things we can't treat". 

[JoshRH]

Japan's debt to GDP ratio is about 250% which is about double anyone else.

 

If you think that the Japanese have a reason not to be mentally ill then take the Ukraine and Lebanon where you would think that they do. The mental illness rates there are the second highest in the world behind NA at about 21%.

That GDP is the third largest in the world, and their citizens hold over $13 trillion dollars in private assets. 

 

I never said that the Japanese have no reason to be mentally ill, I demonstrated that they provide plenty of incentive to hide mental illness. 

[JoshRH]

http://www.timescolo...sites-1.2349810

 

This will be a big help, and it would be nice to see the province step up with increased resources for treatment. Of course that would be easier with a new health accord at the federal level... 

 

With three levels of government, chiefly focused on short term (re-election) platforms, it's very difficult to get the long-term solutions in place, but there are definitely some positive steps forward happening. 

[edvictoria]

Perhaps a new thread on mental illness or substance abuse and it's philosophical debate could continue to be made on Vibrant Victoria somewhere else. I respect that there is a link to homelessness, but hearing over and over how wrong and stupid people are for asking questions is becoming ridiculous.

 

I was a health educator for years, and if my students disagreed in a discussion with that type of disrespect, I would have asked them to leave the room. There is a way to respectfully disagree with someone, and it doesn't involve name calling, or stomping your feet, while insisting that you are right. I've been apart of many debates in the healthcare field, and the wonderful thing is that there are many opinions and interpretations, of what is deemed "facts." That's what propels science forward. If we accepted all of the psychiatric field's "facts" as total truths, just because it's in a DSM, homosexuality would still be labeled as "sexually deviant" (DSM- published in 1968). Women would still be diagnosed with "Female Hysteria" (This wasn't removed from the DSM until 1980).

 

A respectful debate is a very healthy thing for a society. When people are asking questions it's not perpetuating a stereotype or stigma, in fact it's the opposite. It shows a curiosity and a willingness to investigate further. it's starting a discussion around these very issues. How wonderful that we are talking about mental health, and it's possible effects and causes. Let's just learn to respect that even at the highest level of scientific research, researchers are also having debates at this very moment, and new findings will mould and change our future perspectives. 

 

Feel free to criticize my point of view, and call it stupid, a "lay person's" perspective, and shout a little louder that your beliefs are better and more acceptable by attaching a litany of links, however, I won't respond, and I hope others follow suit, as it's not a productive way to discuss and debate such an important issue. 

[aastra]

There seems to be enough interest in this tangent re: categorizations and designations to justify a new thread. Call it "The Semantics of Mental Illness and Addiction" or something like that, for discussion and debate of the terminology, categorizations, and designations used in research literature, media coverage, and normal conversation.

 

I'm curious as to why the mods are content to leave this topic buried inside the Victoria homelessness issues thread? We've got a bunch of threads on this board that were spun off just because somebody sneezed.