Jump to content

      













Photo

Addiction and mental illness in Victoria


  • Please log in to reply
740 replies to this topic

#61 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 15,023 posts

Posted 23 September 2016 - 07:20 AM

What the heck?? No, edvictoria is not one of my 200 aliases. Although I think JoshRH might be.



#62 JoshRH

JoshRH
  • Member
  • 260 posts

Posted 23 September 2016 - 08:25 AM

It's silly to pretend that everyone's point of view is valid when we have people suffering and dying needlessly because of the collective points of a view of a bunch of conservative ideologues. Insite has been in operation for over a decade now, and the hypothesis has been proven true by hard science; harm reduction saves lives, it reduces the transmission of disease, and it introduces more users to treatment programs. Despite what has been proven, we don't have any safe injection sites in Victoria, and still only one in Vancouver. We should have had these programs in place TEN YEARS AGO wherever we have substance use disorders, but our previous federal government was waging an ideological battle against accepted science. Again, people died needlessly because of ideological points of view not based on any science. 

 

Equating inquiring scientific minds with the conservative ideological stubbornness of the unwashed masses is ridiculous. Yes, of course we should continue developing and testing new hypotheses to diagnose and treat mental health. No, armchair quarterbacks on the internet shouting down current diagnoses and treatment best practices is not part of the scientific process.


  • http and tedward like this

There are more fools than knaves in the world, else the knaves would not have enough to live upon. - Samuel Butler


#63 lanforod

lanforod
  • Member
  • 7,250 posts
  • LocationSaanich

Posted 23 September 2016 - 08:50 AM

It's silly to pretend that everyone's point of view is valid when we have people suffering and dying needlessly because of the collective points of a view of a bunch of conservative ideologues. Insite has been in operation for over a decade now, and the hypothesis has been proven true by hard science; harm reduction saves lives, it reduces the transmission of disease, and it introduces more users to treatment programs. Despite what has been proven, we don't have any safe injection sites in Victoria, and still only one in Vancouver. We should have had these programs in place TEN YEARS AGO wherever we have substance use disorders, but our previous federal government was waging an ideological battle against accepted science. Again, people died needlessly because of ideological points of view not based on any science. 

 

Equating inquiring scientific minds with the conservative ideological stubbornness of the unwashed masses is ridiculous. Yes, of course we should continue developing and testing new hypotheses to diagnose and treat mental health. No, armchair quarterbacks on the internet shouting down current diagnoses and treatment best practices is not part of the scientific process.

 

Harm reduction is fine, so long as it goes hand in hand with treatment - ie. detox. Insite doesn't push detox on people, which is why the demand for insite is increasing, not decreasing. We are seeing less harm done, yes, but it isn't solving the root problem.


  • jonny and Midnightly like this

#64 manuel

manuel
  • Member
  • 595 posts

Posted 24 September 2016 - 03:51 PM

This thread needs an intervention
  • AllseeingEye, jonny and Daveyboy like this
"I know nothing"

#65 Bingo

Bingo
  • Member
  • 16,666 posts

Posted 24 September 2016 - 06:58 PM

This thread needs an intervention

 

There is plenty of honest insight in some of the minds on this thread that know intervention will work once the denial process winds down and the person asks for help.


  • jonny and sdwright.vic like this

#66 jonny

jonny
  • Member
  • 9,211 posts

Posted 24 September 2016 - 07:36 PM

Harm reduction is fine, so long as it goes hand in hand with treatment - ie. detox. Insite doesn't push detox on people, which is why the demand for insite is increasing, not decreasing. We are seeing less harm done, yes, but it isn't solving the root problem.

 

I wonder if places like Insite prevent addicts from reaching the "rock bottom" most of them seem to need to get clean?

 

To me, any sort of societal normalization of injecting oneself with the most harmful and addictive substances known to man just seems wrong on common sense grounds.

 

On the flip side, if a 'safe injection site' means that downtown workers have to pick up fewer needles, garbage and feces, then I say let's do it. It can't be worse than the current situation. A friend of mine had to clean up used needles and human shit from behind a downtown business on Yates Street the other day. Everyday people shouldn't have to do that, unless of course they signed up to be a nurse or something. Friends of mine who work at a gym on Blanshard pick up used needles almost daily. It's really sad to me that they have to have one of those used needle safe disposal boxes.

 

What if one of them gets sloppy or loses their grip and gets pricked? That ain't right either.


  • lanforod likes this

#67 JoshRH

JoshRH
  • Member
  • 260 posts

Posted 24 September 2016 - 08:33 PM

I wonder if places like Insite prevent addicts from reaching the "rock bottom" most of them seem to need to get clean?

 

To me, any sort of societal normalization of injecting oneself with the most harmful and addictive substances known to man just seems wrong on common sense grounds.

I don't think what's happening is normalization at all. Substance abuse disorder is universally recognized as a potentially life-threatening ailment with many associated and decidedly negative symptoms. Treatment is still the goal, but it's in conjunction with harm reduction, rather than treatment in conjunction with criminalization.

 

By comparison, unhealthy eating habits are far more detrimental to society in almost every measurable way, yet most people don't seem to mind that behaviour being treated as 'normal'.  


There are more fools than knaves in the world, else the knaves would not have enough to live upon. - Samuel Butler


#68 Nparker

Nparker
  • Member
  • 23,791 posts

Posted 24 September 2016 - 08:36 PM

...By comparison, unhealthy eating habits are far more detrimental to society in almost every measurable way, yet most people don't seem to mind that behaviour being treated as 'normal'.  

People can't live without food. People can live without illicit drugs.


  • Midnightly and On the Level like this

#69 jonny

jonny
  • Member
  • 9,211 posts

Posted 24 September 2016 - 08:39 PM

Enough with the nonsensical comparisons to food Josh. Nobody ever stopped going to work because they got a nasty coca cola addiction.

#70 JoshRH

JoshRH
  • Member
  • 260 posts

Posted 24 September 2016 - 08:51 PM

Enough with the nonsensical comparisons to food Josh. Nobody ever stopped going to work because they got a nasty coca cola addiction.

You're not being serious, are you? 

 

  • Heart disease and stroke costs the Canadian economy more than $20.9 billion every year in physician services, hospital costs, lost wages and decreased productivityxv.

http://www.heartands.../Statistics.htm

 

For comparison, let's look at substance abuse in it's various forms:

 

 The Costs of Substance Abuse in Canada 2002 was released in April, 2006. The study estimated the total societal cost of substance abuse to be $39.8 billion or $1,267 for every Canadian.

The study also revealed that:

  • ‚ÄčLegal substances (tobacco and alcohol) account for 79.3% of the total cost of substance abuse:

    • Tobacco accounts for 42.7% ($17 billion)

    • Alcohol accounts for 36.6% ($14.6 billion)

  • Illegal drugs account for 20.7% ($8.2 billion).

http://www.ccsa.ca/E...es/default.aspx

 

The dates are a bit spread, but we clearly have heart disease and stroke costing far more than illegal substance abuse, and that includes a significant chunk of money to lost wages. Claiming that nobody ever stopped going to work due to heart disease or stroke is patently false, and dismissing the comparison as nonsensical is without merit. The only difference is, drugs are illegal and carry a huge social stigma, unhealthy lifestyle choices around exercise and diet are legal and normalized in society. As for actual harm, the illegal drug use isn't as costly. 


There are more fools than knaves in the world, else the knaves would not have enough to live upon. - Samuel Butler


#71 sdwright.vic

sdwright.vic

    Burnside-Gorge

  • Member
  • 6,524 posts

Posted 25 September 2016 - 09:45 AM

By comparison, unhealthy eating habits are far more detrimental to society in almost every measurable way, yet most people don't seem to mind that behaviour being treated as 'normal'.


...and there we have the stretch. People eat poorly and cause themselves health issues that cost more than substance abuse and homelessness.

Well sorry, my other half had a heart attack coming up on three years ago. Goes to the gym, dragon boat in summer, outrigger canoe in the winters. Long hikes on the weekends for both of us. A very strict diet as I am boarderline diabetic and controlling my sugar through diet.

All this health and yet still had a heart attack. Was back to work in less than 2 months. Never had to use any government welfare during this time.

Boiled down to genetics, not being unhealthy. His two month vacation may of cost the company something, but he has contributed significantly to their bottom line and new contracts. Oh... yeah, that's right! He also has paid a significant amount in payroll and sales tax in his xx years of being a PRODUCING member of our society.

Not someone that just wants a place to live where the can continue on their distuctive path unquestioned. Oh, and blame boredom when the behave badly. Mental heath and drug addiction is no excuse for bad behavior. I do believe we have coveted that.
  • A Girl is No one likes this
Predictive text and a tiny keyboard are not my friends!

#72 JoshRH

JoshRH
  • Member
  • 260 posts

Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:09 AM

...and there we have the stretch. People eat poorly and cause themselves health issues that cost more than substance abuse and homelessness.

Well sorry, my other half had a heart attack coming up on three years ago. Goes to the gym, dragon boat in summer, outrigger canoe in the winters. Long hikes on the weekends for both of us. A very strict diet as I am boarderline diabetic and controlling my sugar through diet.

All this health and yet still had a heart attack. Was back to work in less than 2 months. Never had to use any government welfare during this time.

Boiled down to genetics, not being unhealthy. His two month vacation may of cost the company something, but he has contributed significantly to their bottom line and new contracts. Oh... yeah, that's right! He also has paid a significant amount in payroll and sales tax in his xx years of being a PRODUCING member of our society.

Not someone that just wants a place to live where the can continue on their distuctive path unquestioned. Oh, and blame boredom when the behave badly. Mental heath and drug addiction is no excuse for bad behavior. I do believe we have coveted that.

I'm happy for you and your significant other. But that's by far the exception, and not the rule. When we're discussing broad subjects such as mental illness, drug addiction, or heart disease and stroke, basing points of view on anecdotal exceptions to well-documented rules is asinine. What you're calling a stretch is actually a fact. 

 

One only needs to look at obesity rates in North America to see that unhealthy diet and lifestyle choices are a huge problem, with significant consequences measured not only in mortality and morbidity, but huge dollar costs for lost wages, hospitalization, and treatment. 


There are more fools than knaves in the world, else the knaves would not have enough to live upon. - Samuel Butler


#73 Greg

Greg
  • Member
  • 1,718 posts

Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:27 AM

People die. If it isn't from heart disease or stroke, it is from cancer or Alzheimer's. A large percentage of the average person's medical expenses occur in the final weeks of their life, and the ultimate cause of death isn't particularly relevant. In the last few decades we have effectively traded cigarette-related mortality for obesity-related mortality. The costs didn't disappear when smoking was reduced and they won't disappear if morbid obesity is reduced. They will be transferred to the new leading cause of mortality.

 

Plus, downtown areas are seldom ruined and suffering from the tax base eroding because of people being overweight. Your analogy isn't really that strong.

 

As a side note -- the constant argument from authority and dismissal of others opinions doesn't make you seem knowledgeable so much as it makes you seem a prat.


  • Nparker, AllseeingEye, weirdie and 5 others like this

#74 AllseeingEye

AllseeingEye

    AllSeeingEye

  • Member
  • 4,043 posts
  • LocationGorge-Selkirk

Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:40 AM

People die. If it isn't from heart disease or stroke, it is from cancer or Alzheimer's. A large percentage of the average person's medical expenses occur in the final weeks of their life, and the ultimate cause of death isn't particularly relevant. In the last few decades we have effectively traded cigarette-related mortality for obesity-related mortality. The costs didn't disappear when smoking was reduced and they won't disappear if morbid obesity is reduced. They will be transferred to the new leading cause of mortality.

 

Plus, downtown areas are seldom ruined and suffering from the tax base eroding because of people being overweight. Your analogy isn't really that strong.

 

As a side note -- the constant argument from authority and dismissal of others opinions doesn't make you seem knowledgeable so much as it makes you seem a prat.

Post of the entire thread: *this* seems however to be Josh's raison d'etre. Whether its strategic oil or mental health or, or, or....it seems Mr Wonderful knows it all: why we should all deign to be humbled to be in the presence of apparent genius folks.

 

Its kind of like arguing with a 16 year old know-it-all amped up on teen hormones. Ours just turned 18 so I have lots of exposure and practice.

 

Like that teen "Josh" seems incapable of stepping back, taking a very deep breath, and asking him/herself whether its maybe just possible the other person has a valid viewpoint - something that maybe I haven't considered before. Nope, far too easy to plunge ahead with all the grace of a bull in a china shop. You know the ultimate result will be a train-wreck of course - but you still take guilty pleasure in watching it all unfold anyway......


  • sdwright.vic likes this

#75 JoshRH

JoshRH
  • Member
  • 260 posts

Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:48 AM

People die. If it isn't from heart disease or stroke, it is from cancer or Alzheimer's. A large percentage of the average person's medical expenses occur in the final weeks of their life, and the ultimate cause of death isn't particularly relevant. In the last few decades we have effectively traded cigarette-related mortality for obesity-related mortality. The costs didn't disappear when smoking was reduced and they won't disappear if morbid obesity is reduced. They will be transferred to the new leading cause of mortality.

 

Plus, downtown areas are seldom ruined and suffering from the tax base eroding because of people being overweight. Your analogy isn't really that strong.

 

As a side note -- the constant argument from authority and dismissal of others opinions doesn't make you seem knowledgeable so much as it makes you seem a prat.

I'm sorry that you feel the need to call me names because I'm correcting blatant misinformation.

 

But I'm going to do it again. You claim that "in the last few decades we have effectively traded cigarette-related mortality for obesity related mortality". In fact, smoking is still the leading cause of premature death in Canada. 


There are more fools than knaves in the world, else the knaves would not have enough to live upon. - Samuel Butler


#76 jonny

jonny
  • Member
  • 9,211 posts

Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:48 AM

You're not being serious, are you? 

 

  • Heart disease and stroke costs the Canadian economy more than $20.9 billion every year in physician services, hospital costs, lost wages and decreased productivityxv.

http://www.heartands.../Statistics.htm

 

For comparison, let's look at substance abuse in it's various forms:

 

 The Costs of Substance Abuse in Canada 2002 was released in April, 2006. The study estimated the total societal cost of substance abuse to be $39.8 billion or $1,267 for every Canadian.

The study also revealed that:

  • ‚ÄčLegal substances (tobacco and alcohol) account for 79.3% of the total cost of substance abuse:

    • Tobacco accounts for 42.7% ($17 billion)

    • Alcohol accounts for 36.6% ($14.6 billion)

  • Illegal drugs account for 20.7% ($8.2 billion).

http://www.ccsa.ca/E...es/default.aspx

 

The dates are a bit spread, but we clearly have heart disease and stroke costing far more than illegal substance abuse, and that includes a significant chunk of money to lost wages. Claiming that nobody ever stopped going to work due to heart disease or stroke is patently false, and dismissing the comparison as nonsensical is without merit. The only difference is, drugs are illegal and carry a huge social stigma, unhealthy lifestyle choices around exercise and diet are legal and normalized in society. As for actual harm, the illegal drug use isn't as costly. 

 

I am bud.

 

Thing is, statistically, if you live long enough, it is pretty much a guarantee that you will get cancer and/or heart disease. As a paramedic, you must know that. Are you just being intentionally obtuse? The mechanisms behind these diseases are much more complex than the "unhealthy eating habits" narrative you keep pushing. Just ask Gord Downie.

 

People who live for decades, live into their 60's, 70's and 80's and get heart disease or cancer have contributed to society for years paying their taxes, volunteering, donating to charities, etc. Generally they have been good citizens, raised good families and more than paid for themselves from a societal stand piont.

 

Junkies shooting up smack in alleys and doorways contribute absolutely nothing to society. They only cost everybody else a great deal of money, pain and suffering.

 

Your constant comparisons of hard core drug use and unhealthy eating habits are irrelevant and do not, in any way, shape or form, reduce or negate the negative externalities of hardcore substance abuse.


  • weirdie, sdwright.vic and Midnightly like this

#77 Greg

Greg
  • Member
  • 1,718 posts

Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:53 AM

I'm sorry that you feel the need to call me names because I'm correcting blatant misinformation.

 

But I'm going to do it again. You claim that "in the last few decades we have effectively traded cigarette-related mortality for obesity related mortality". In fact, smoking is still the leading cause of premature death in Canada. 

Doesn't change the fact that there was a massive reduction in one area (while an increase in another area). Smoking related deaths are way down.  "This resulted in an estimated 157 million years (CR, 139-165 million) of life saved..." http://jama.jamanetw...ticleid=1812962

 

And for what it's worth, since you like to split hairs, I in fact did NOT call you a name. I noted that your approach in the forum affected the way you are perceived.



#78 JoshRH

JoshRH
  • Member
  • 260 posts

Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:56 AM

I am bud.

 

Thing is, statistically, if you live long enough, it is pretty much a guarantee that you will get cancer and/or heart disease. As a paramedic, you must know that. Are you just being intentionally obtuse? The mechanisms behind these diseases are much more complex than the "unhealthy eating habits" narrative you keep pushing. Just ask Gord Downie.

 

People who live for decades, live into their 60's, 70's and 80's and get heart disease or cancer have contributed to society for years paying their taxes, volunteering, donating to charities, etc. Generally they have been good citizens, raised good families and more than paid for themselves from a societal stand piont.

 

Junkies shooting up smack in alleys and doorways contribute absolutely nothing to society. They only cost everybody else a great deal of money, pain and suffering.

 

Your constant comparisons of hard core drug use and unhealthy eating habits are irrelevant and do not, in any way, shape or form, reduce or negate the negative externalities of hardcore substance abuse.

I'm specifically talking about the measured and accounted loss of productivity attributed to substance use disorders in comparison to other categories such as heart attack and stroke, or tobacco use, or obesity, etc. 

 

Do you think when they're doing that accounting and producing those stats, they're considering lost wages for people who have lived past the average working age? Because your argument suggests you do think that...


There are more fools than knaves in the world, else the knaves would not have enough to live upon. - Samuel Butler


#79 jonny

jonny
  • Member
  • 9,211 posts

Posted 25 September 2016 - 12:06 PM

I'm specifically talking about the measured and accounted loss of productivity attributed to substance use disorders in comparison to other categories such as heart attack and stroke, or tobacco use, or obesity, etc.

 

Well, that's quite the interesting about face from yesterday, which was the point I have been disputing...

 

By comparison, unhealthy eating habits are far more detrimental to society in almost every measurable way, yet most people don't seem to mind that behaviour being treated as 'normal'.  

 

In any case, junkies, errr I mean "folks with substance abuse disorders", have zero productivity. Nadda. Zip. Zilch. Unless you consider B&Es productive, of course.


  • sdwright.vic likes this

#80 LJ

LJ
  • Member
  • 9,177 posts

Posted 25 September 2016 - 07:32 PM

...and there we have the stretch. People eat poorly and cause themselves health issues that cost more than substance abuse and homelessness.

 

Old Josh jumped the shark some time back on this forum, that makes it easy to skip over his posts now.


  • AllseeingEye, sdwright.vic and RFS like this
Life's a journey......so roll down the window and enjoy the breeze.

You're not quite at the end of this discussion topic!

Use the page links at the lower-left to go to the next page to read additional posts.
 



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users