6319 replies to this topic

[57WestHills]

Definitely not power. The Spirits and previously the V's had the baby engines of the fleet (relative to their size). The Spirits couldn't keep the schedule on any other major route, whereas when the C Class were on Route 1 way back they had an 80 minute sailing time. The Celebration could also easily achieve 80 - the New West in that range too, losing a couple minutes for the Tsawwassen spin though when it leaves.

A C would fit into berth 2 or 3 at Swartz Bay no problem, and almost any in Tsawwassen (keeping in mind a C class ferry is already based there).

Realistically the C Class aren't there because of a few reasons:
- lack of passenger deck space
- deep hulls make them less ideal for Active Pass
- Route 2 benefits most from double enders for schedule management.

Edited by 57WestHills, 05 July 2017 - 09:50 AM.

[jonny]

Sorry, but the Spirits and Coastals have loads more power. Like double. 8,000 KW vs 16,000 KW.

 

The Coastals have the deepest draft of them all, so that makes no sense.

 

Look, they're simply going to put their biggest and best vessels on Route 1, the biggest and busiest route. The Coastals are superior to the C Class vessels. Bigger cafeterias, buffets, can handle more passengers, faster loading/unloading, etc.

[shoeflack]

From the C-Class Wikipedia page..."At one time these ferries operated on the Swartz Bay-Tsawwassen route, but due to limitations placed on their speed when transiting Active Pass—after an accident [Queen of Alberni] they were required to operate in the more maneuverable docking mode rather than cruising mode—it is no longer feasible to run them on that route."

 

There's also a good discussion on the C-Class Active Pass issue at the West Coast Ferries Forum.

 

End result, no one seems to know the exact reason why C-Class vessels aren't on Route 1. Some say Transport Canada doesn't allow it, some say it's a speed issue, some say it's a hull issue. The list goes on and on.

[Kach]

I believe it's a variety of reasons. For example, not all the ships fit into all of the berths. Most Route 1 vessels have buffets. Some can hold bigger/longer trucks.

 

The biggest reason I have heard why we won't see a C Class vessel on Route 1 is they have relatively low power. They want/need the Route 1 ships to have a certain amount of power to transit Active Pass, which has very strong currents and lots of traffic.

 

Thanks.  All these comments make sense, but I am really only thinking about peak travel times while the Spirit vessels are in for refit (winter 2017 and winter 2018).  If 4 ferries are required to cover peak times, then where do they find the 4th boat?  

 

If it needs to be a Coastal or Salish to safely transit Active Pass, so be it.  But if not I would suggest the C-Class ferries are an option as well.  

[57WestHills]

Sorry, but the Spirits and Coastals have loads more power. Like double. 8,000 KW vs 16,000 KW.

The Coastals have the deepest draft of them all, so that makes no sense.

Look, they're simply going to put their biggest and best vessels on Route 1, the biggest and busiest route. The Coastals are superior to the C Class vessels. Bigger cafeterias, buffets, can handle more passengers, faster loading/unloading, etc.

No. For the literal power you're technically correct - but - that's not how the performance of a ship is measured. The Spirits at full ahead do about 16 knots, tops. The rest of the majors can sustain 20ish knots. Route 2 was slowed down five minutes ago about a decade ago just because it had a dramatic reduction in fuel use for a minor loss of time.

The Coastals don't have the deepest draught - so that's easy to respond too lol.

It's not "the biggest and best" on Route 1 or the New West would be back on Route 30.

[57WestHills]

From the C-Class Wikipedia page..."At one time these ferries operated on the Swartz Bay-Tsawwassen route, but due to limitations placed on their speed when transiting Active Pass—after an accident [Queen of Alberni] they were required to operate in the more maneuverable docking mode rather than cruising mode—it is no longer feasible to run them on that route."

There's also a good discussion on the C-Class Active Pass issue at the West Coast Ferries Forum.

End result, no one seems to know the exact reason why C-Class vessels aren't on Route 1. Some say Transport Canada doesn't allow it, some say it's a speed issue, some say it's a hull issue. The list goes on and on.

Transport Canada doesn't prohibit it. People talk about that like it's a hypothetical. The ships licenses are, by law, posted publically. There's no Active Pass prohibition on the C class license.

The Coastals also operated in "Mode 2" now through Active Pass - same as the C class would need too. It's inefficient as it means the forward prop is feathering and ready to be activated whereas the rest of the trip it's just off.

Like I said at the beginning of the discussion the C's speed is better utilized elsewhere and the lack of a passenger space. The Coquitlam and Cowichan were designed for the Richmond - Gabriola crossing that never came to be, so, a big passenger space wasn't needed because of the 40 minute crossing time.

Edited by 57WestHills, 05 July 2017 - 11:07 AM.

[57WestHills]

Thanks. All these comments make sense, but I am really only thinking about peak travel times while the Spirit vessels are in for refit (winter 2017 and winter 2018). If 4 ferries are required to cover peak times, then where do they find the 4th boat?

If it needs to be a Coastal or Salish to safely transit Active Pass, so be it. But if not I would suggest the C-Class ferries are an option as well.

The Spirits will need to be ontime or traffic will be a disaster. However, as long as the Spirits are back for the second-to-last week of June service can be maintained at status quo - it'll be tight for refits but they got a lot done this year. Routes 2 & 3 share an extra vessel for peak sailings outside of summer; normally the Cow or Coqu it runs Departure Bay - Horseshoe Bay - Langdale and then the same back. So that leaves one of those two boats free even in peak off season. In turn I'm pretty confident the Renaissance will get pulled to Tsawwassen full time as they're already trained up on it for that crew base.

I strongly suspect deployment will be:

Swartz Bay -
Spirit-that's-in-Canada
Coastal Celebration

Tsawwassen -
Coastal Renaissance
Queen of New Westminster.

This will mean a net decrease of capacity by about a hundred vehicles when there's four vessel service.

Edited by 57WestHills, 05 July 2017 - 11:20 AM.

[lanforod]

This discussion just makes me wonder if they could in the future get to 60 minute crossing time ferries that are also efficient. Get it fast enough, you can drop a boat, no?

[VicHockeyFan]

This discussion just makes me wonder if they could in the future get to 60 minute crossing time ferries that are also efficient. Get it fast enough, you can drop a boat, no?

 

That's a great question.  Because faster also means efficiencies, probably not in fuel of course, but in passengers moved per hour.  You shave 1/3 off your crew labour coats.  I'd love to see a crew-cost-per-hour chart and a fuel-per-hour chart.

Edited by VicHockeyFan, 05 July 2017 - 11:46 AM.

[shoeflack]

I don't know if the union's going to like that!

[PraiseKek]

This discussion just makes me wonder if they could in the future get to 60 minute crossing time ferries that are also efficient. Get it fast enough, you can drop a boat, no?

Not this again. Look just because the NDP is back in power does not mean there will be fast ferries.

[lanforod]

Hah, i'm no NDP fan. The idea behind fast crossings is sound though. The execution in the 90s was fubared.

Edited by lanforod, 05 July 2017 - 12:22 PM.

[57WestHills]

The end result ships were fundamentally sound though. The Bowen Island wake lawsuit was the pragmatic issue for service. Then for reasons other than the actual boats they became such a political target they were doomed. That said fastv car ferries have a terrible tendency to fail. Mostly due to costs. Alaska ties there's up almost constantly. The Cat out East went bankrupt twice, even when subsidized by the government once. Just seems too complicated I guess.

[jonny]

Thanks.  All these comments make sense, but I am really only thinking about peak travel times while the Spirit vessels are in for refit (winter 2017 and winter 2018).  If 4 ferries are required to cover peak times, then where do they find the 4th boat? 

 

The plan is for the Spirits to be back from their respective MLUs prior to the busy summer season.

 

At other peak travel times, they will have two Coastals on the route, which is already done today when one of the Spirits is in refit.

[jonny]

The end result ships were fundamentally sound though. The Bowen Island wake lawsuit was the pragmatic issue for service. Then for reasons other than the actual boats they became such a political target they were doomed. That said fastv car ferries have a terrible tendency to fail. Mostly due to costs. Alaska ties there's up almost constantly. The Cat out East went bankrupt twice, even when subsidized by the government once. Just seems too complicated I guess.

 

One word: Fuel

 

Cats are fuel hogs. Any planing boat is, really. The economics just make zero sense. There's a reason all big ships have displacement hulls and not planing hulls.

 

The cost of going from 95 minutes to 60 minutes would be extraordinary.

[Kach]

The plan is for the Spirits to be back from their respective MLUs prior to the busy summer season.

 

At other peak travel times, they will have two Coastals on the route, which is already done today when one of the Spirits is in refit.

 

So a bit of a cascade effect then.  The third Salish class vessel would fit in at peak times likely on Route 2 or Route 3.  I guess what I am hearing is we don't think they would use a Salish class vessel on Route 1 as the 4th vessel.

[jonny]

So a bit of a cascade effect then.  The third Salish class vessel would fit in at peak times likely on Route 2 or Route 3.  I guess what I am hearing is we don't think they would use a Salish class vessel on Route 1 as the 4th vessel.

 

The third Salish vessel will be permanently on the Southern Gulf Islands route, never on Routes 1, 2 or 3.

[Bingo]

The third Salish vessel will be permanently on the Southern Gulf Islands route, never on Routes 1, 2 or 3.

 

Unless we have a really really BIG ONE and we need a Dunkirkish style evacuation to the mainland

[VicHockeyFan]

That's pretty bold.

 

NDP must think there is money sitting all around us.

 

Three key promises in the NDP campaign platform regarding B.C. Ferries is set to come into effect in the next few weeks.

The NDP platform specifies that fares on the major routes will be frozen, fares on minor routes will be rolled back 15 per cent and seniors will once again travel free during the week.

"We are absolutely committed to making sure that life is more affordable for people. And that includes dealing with ferry fares. They were out of control over the last 16 years when the liberal government just walked away from the island communities," says Trevena.

 

http://www.cheknews....romises-349132/

[HB]

there is money sitting around BC Ferries is extremely top heavy . We as taxpayers pay those pencil pushers way more that what they are worth the money can come from there start making those jobs redundent

Time to clean house John