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CANCELLED
926-932 Pandora Avenue
Uses: condo, commercial
Address: 926-932 Pandora Avenue
Municipality: Victoria
Region: Downtown Victoria
Storeys: 10
Condo units: 143 (studio/bachelor, 1BR, 2BR, 3BR, townhome, 1BR + den, 2BR + den)
Sales status: in planning
926-932 Pandora Avenue is a proposal for a 10-storey condominium and townhome development with ground floor re... (view full profile)
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[North Park] 926-932 Pandora Avenue | Affordable rentals, community space


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#141 IPH

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 09:34 AM

Lets hope they don't make it worse, although you may be right.  If they use the 926 Pandora site for a mix of market and affordable housing that would be a positive.  But if they turn it into Our Place 2.0 that will just fuel the problem.



#142 MarkoJ

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 09:38 AM

Lets hope they don't make it worse, although you may be right.  If they use the 926 Pandora site for a mix of market and affordable housing that would be a positive.  But if they turn it into Our Place 2.0 that will just fuel the problem.

 

Why is the city playing developer when they have no idea what they are doing.

 

I am somewhat okay with city buying apartment buildings/motels/etc., whatever, but for them to play developer is going to be a disaster with massive cost over runs where it is going to cost way more than just buying finished product at market value.


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#143 Nparker

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 09:39 AM

....If they use the 926 Pandora site for a mix of market and affordable housing that would be a positive.  But if they turn it into Our Place 2.0 that will just fuel the problem.

Based on the CoV's track record to date, what reason does anyone have to believe they will make a positive choice when it comes to the future of this site? While I never believed for a moment that market condos would actually get built here, I felt that in the hands of private developer there was at least some hope for an uplift of the neighbourhood. In the City's hands, that hope is all but gone.



#144 Mike K.

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 11:50 AM

It would make sense for the City to partner with an existing development firm. That's the way forward with such undertakings, I think.


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#145 spanky123

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 11:59 AM

^ How does that model work? You thinking that the City and developer would lease the building to BC Housing?



#146 IPH

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 12:44 PM

The best way for Government to partner with developers is to provide tax and or density incentives where the developer meets what the City perceives to be a need.  The City should not be purchasing land or buildings and then trying to manage the development, they don't have the expertise and the tax payer ends up paying way more than they should.


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#147 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 12:47 PM

^ there. some sanity. all the city has to do is set the rules (rental type unit type etc.) and let the developer build and run it.

a developer CAN build a building that has $600/mo. rentals if the city provides the right density and tax allowances. they really can.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 11 May 2020 - 12:48 PM.


#148 PPPdev

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 12:49 PM

^ there. some sanity. all the city has to do is set the rules (rental type unit type etc.) and let the developer build and run it.

a developer CAN build a building that has $600/mo. rentals if the city provides the right density and tax allowances. they really can.

 

no they cant. baseline construction costs require a certain rate just to cover costs. The projects that have the deepest subsidizes are CHF projects which get grants AND op cost subsidies.



#149 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 12:57 PM

let me phrase it this way:

the city zones the property such that it can only contain 5:1 FSR (or similar depending on lot size) and better and it can only contain micro suites at 250 sq. ft. no setbacks required no parking required.

and it can only contain rentals.

and it’s given an exemption to all development cost charges plus a 40 year absolute tax holiday.

all provided that the units rent for $600 today and some type of escalation allowance over time.

that now is economically feasible. it can be done.

that’s $2400 rent per 1000 square feet of space. more than doable.

some will be 4-floor wall-ups with 24 suites or 3 with 18 suites on a lot that normally contains one sfd.

some will be much taller (with elevator).

there are thousands of city lots perfect for this. hundreds of them are on shelbourne quadra and cook and gorge and burnside and Fairfield and bay and haultain and vancouver and in rock bay and everywhere that can fit them.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 11 May 2020 - 01:13 PM.


#150 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 01:35 PM

24-unit-apartment-building-plan-and-townhouse-pitched-for-chevy-chase-lake-the-sketch-i-scheduled-to-be-reviewed-by-planning-board-on-july.jpg

these buildings fit on almost any lot and bring in $14,500/mo. in rents ($174k per year). they have an operating cost of less than $1500/mo. in utilities and maintenance. no property tax.

they cost less than $1.5m to build.

they all have smart locks and as such less than one third of the tenant turnovers even require a site visit by the rental administrators.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 11 May 2020 - 01:52 PM.


#151 IPH

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 04:26 PM

Your construction costs are lite especially when you factor in all the non rentable space you have to build for a multi family building ( lobby, hallways, stairs, storage lockers, bike room etc.) 

 

As for smart locks and less than 1 third of the tenant turnovers requiring a site visit that wont work.  The RTA requires that a move in and move our inspection be conducted with each tenant and then there are the repairs and cleaning that are regularly needed between tenants.

 

My point was that the city should not be buying and developing property when they don't have the experience or capability.  They should leave it to the private sector and provide incentives such as density lifts, tax breaks and as PPPDev pointed out and I should have included, subsidies. 



#152 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 04:39 PM

Your construction costs are lite especially when you factor in all the non rentable space you have to build for a multi family building ( lobby, hallways, stairs, storage lockers, bike room etc.) 

 

lockers and bike room and lobby not required really.  city to waive that.  outdoor parking on the sidewalk for short-term bikes, rest is in-suite.  some secure racks might be able to hang on building side.

 

RTA does not require an in-person inspection.  it can be done over video.  cleaning a 250-sq. ft. unit takes under an hour with a pro team.   but if you properly incentivize the prior tenant to clean and/or offer them a cleaning team with a fee you can get this cost down to almost nothing.

 

i'm basing my construction costs on Altus published data.  i'm not at all far off.

 

with my figure even if the $1.5m is financed there is still over $7,000 left over after the monthly mortgage payment.


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 11 May 2020 - 04:56 PM.


#153 IPH

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 05:02 PM

250 ft2 and no storage?  I don't think many people want sleep with their bike.

 

As for video inspections, I'm a landlord and I would not agree to a video move out inspection.  Lots of property listings look fantastic in pictures and video but when you see them in person are a total disaster.  You cant see all the nail holes, scratched paint and floors, stains in the carpet, cracked tubs, etc. or any other detail via video especially when your not operating the camera.

 

Altus does not publish direct construction costs for Victoria but suggests you use a cost index or multiplier on Vancouver rates.  In my experience that multiplier is lite, especially if you are trying to build durable finishes for a rental use.


Edited by IPH, 11 May 2020 - 05:09 PM.


#154 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 05:03 PM

these are $600/mo. units for the poor don't forget.  to get all but the die-hards off the street.  you would not want to live there it's not all that pleasant.  but it's a home for those that need it.  and every single british columbian can afford the rent (it's well under the monthly welfare rate). 

 

no frills here. 

 

your next choice is a market $1200 or $1500 unit.

 

there will be no carpet in this building.

 

nail holes are a feature not a bug.

 

this building has no bathtubs.  just showers.


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 11 May 2020 - 05:13 PM.


#155 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 02:14 AM

Maybe there is some hint here that north park will get its community centre. too bad maybe they have to share it with the homeless.

this article has it at closer to $10m

https://www.timescol...plan-1.24133479

#156 Rob Randall

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 05:24 AM

As for video inspections, I'm a landlord and I would not agree to a video move out inspection.  Lots of property listings look fantastic in pictures and video but when you see them in person are a total disaster.  You cant see all the nail holes,

 

Nail holes don't count by the way. A tenant can put as many nail holes in the wall as they please.

 

Maybe there is some hint here that north park will get its community centre. too bad maybe they have to share it with the homeless.

 

Oh, I will bet money there will be some sort of flex space for the NPNA. It might not be a permanent space they can program like Fairfield has but they will have access to it for meetings and events. 


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#157 Nparker

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 05:27 AM

... will bet money there will be some sort of flex space for the NPNA...

In the heart of Victoria's d/t slum sounds like the perfect location for the NPNA.



#158 IPH

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 07:13 AM

Nail holes don't count by the way. A tenant can put as many nail holes in the wall as they please.

The RTB web page actually says:

 

"Nail holes do not need to be filled if the landlord’s rules for hanging and removing pictures have been followed – however, tenants are expected to pay to repair excessive nail holes or deliberate damage"

 

So if a lease agreement states that pictures or other decorations are only to be hung with small picture hook nails or better yet, 3M Command Strips and the tenant decides to pound 3 inch spikes into all the walls they are responsible for the repairs.    

 

I tend to screen my tenants well to insure they will be responsible and respectful of my properties so have not had this problem.  But that may be difficult to do in a $600/month unit in the 900 Block of Pandora where there may be high turnover and normal screening measures such as employment, and past landlord references are not available.


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#159 MarkoJ

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 07:19 AM

Who wants to bet the city spends $5 to $15 million more on the build out than an experienced developer would?


Edited by MarkoJ, 12 May 2020 - 07:21 AM.

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#160 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 07:21 AM

that’s true. but nobody is looking for perfection in the $600 units. even elsewhere you can almost bank on people hanging a tv nowadays. that’s going to need some patching.

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