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#41 Rorschach

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 03:23 PM

While the rest of your post had some good points. I could not disagree more with this point. No matter what position you hold in life you are still a human and liable to make mistakes or break laws and should be held accountable. Life should not be a Bad Boys Movie.


Not total immunity for sure, but absent something completely unreasonable, the cops should be immune from lawsuit especially for mistakes. Their decisions are made in a moment without the benefit of infinite perspective and 20/20 hindsight and a moment hesitation can cost them their lives in a shoot or don't shoot situation.

#42 G-Man

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 03:27 PM

But as you have argued in regards to ramping up prosecution to deter criminal activity, the threat of lawsuits will serve as a deterrent to hasty rash decisions by law enforcement.

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#43 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 05:19 PM

Weighing in against my better judgement here... It seems to me that firing 12 or 15 shots indicates that something was out of control on the officers' side. It's unacceptable to have that kind of shoot-out (incidentally one-sided) on residential streets. What if the police had wounded or killed a bystander? As for the suspect/ criminal: from reading the articles, I gather he was trying to get into a stable job position, but that he had experienced several head injuries in the last couple of years. One of them might have been while committing a crime (can't remember the details from the article), but another one happened quite innocently. After the head injuries, however, his behaviour changed. So, frankly, I believe his widow when she says that this car chase and what looks like an attempted ramming of the officers was out of character for him -- I'm ready to consider the idea that he had a brain injury (a lesion) that contributed to this last incident. I think the whole thing was probably entirely preventable, and that, by itself, his past history of crime wouldn't have predicted this final outcome. It's too bad that more wasn't known (by his family, by his doctor even?) about brain injuries, about his specific brain injury, and the effect it may have been having on his moods and behaviour.

Seriously. I know a guy who slipped in the shower while on vacation in the Caribbean and who ended up having to be institutionalized because he became unpredictably violent. We're all just a bunch of chemical processes -- protect your head, it's your most valuable asset.
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#44 Rorschach

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 05:21 PM

I think if you asked them why twelve shots were fired the answer would be that they only had twelve bullets. The police will continue to fire until the threat ceases. Since they only struck two out of twelve, I think missed shots failing to neutralize the threat is a reason they fired more.

#45 Holden West

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 05:23 PM

the week

By —Andrew MacLeod
Monday Magazine Feb 07 2007

Shot driver on crack

One of the last people to talk with John Seguin, who Victoria police shot February 3 at the corner of Hillside Ave. and Blackwood Street while he drove a stolen SUV, says he seemed to be high on drugs.

“He was doing the crack dance all over the place, he sure was,” says Tara Parker, who adds she asked Seguin if he knew who had broken into her Quadra Street home the night before. “The reason he went for those cops is he was right out of his head. He was cracked right out, and I saw him right before he got shot. I was probably the last person to talk to him.”

According to a report in the Times Colonist, Seguin’s wife says he was “spending a peaceful evening” at home with her, three children and a granddaughter before going out just after 7 p.m. on an errand. By 8 p.m. police spotted him in the stolen vehicle and within minutes he was shot and soon died.

Parker says she doesn’t believe Seguin could have got that high that fast. “He had to be doing it at home he was so high,” she says. But she can understand his wife’s comments to the paper: “Everyone always wants to remember the good things.”
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#46 Rorschach

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 05:30 PM

Police must make quick decisions in life and death situations. Perhaps you can provide an example of a rash decision that a fear of a lawsuit would prevent? Are you not assuming the police are acting maliciously?

The criminals have layer upon layer of protections and multiple redundant and superfluous rights in the criminal justice system. The police officers are assumed to be in the wrong nearly universally by a multitude of well-meaning, but usually ignorant people.

The news gives way too much exposure to viewpoints hostile to the police, and they just have to take it in silence.

A story on CH last night was about a victim who had his door kicked in and was robbed and beaten. They caught the guy and convicted him in court but the story was how the bad guy got no jail time. It's just sickening.

#47 Willa

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 05:49 PM

Rorschach, I can understand where you are coming from -- police have a difficult job, and no one ever wants to be Monday-morning quarterbacked. The fact the officers had to make quick decisions makes it more difficult, but that is part of their job, and what they are trained to do.

Morever, while I heartily agree that we need to punish people for the bad things they do, that doesn't mean police should have carte blanche. Particulary when, in this case, we don't even know if he stole the car. He was driving it, but it doesn't mean he stole it, or knew it was stolen. Also, when the police saw him get into the car, and chose to chase him, they had no idea who he was. They have admitted they didn't ID him until after they shot him. So, as far as they knew, he could have been an innocent person, not a man with a long record.

Public safety should be paramount in any situation the cops handle. We all want to see bad people held to account, but I know I don't want to see that happen at the expense of other, innocent people. In this case, we were lucky no one else was harmed -- while the police were ripping through residential streets, and then shooting 12 shots.

#48 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 07:40 PM

the week

By —Andrew MacLeod
Monday Magazine Feb 07 2007

Shot driver on crack

One of the last people to talk with John Seguin, who Victoria police shot February 3 at the corner of Hillside Ave. and Blackwood Street while he drove a stolen SUV, says he seemed to be high on drugs.

“He was doing the crack dance all over the place, he sure was,” says Tara Parker, who adds she asked Seguin if he knew who had broken into her Quadra Street home the night before. “The reason he went for those cops is he was right out of his head. He was cracked right out, and I saw him right before he got shot. I was probably the last person to talk to him.”

According to a report in the Times Colonist, Seguin’s wife says he was “spending a peaceful evening” at home with her, three children and a granddaughter before going out just after 7 p.m. on an errand. By 8 p.m. police spotted him in the stolen vehicle and within minutes he was shot and soon died.

Parker says she doesn’t believe Seguin could have got that high that fast. “He had to be doing it at home he was so high,” she says. But she can understand his wife’s comments to the paper: “Everyone always wants to remember the good things.”


Man, Monday Magazine is pretty execrable (high-falutin' way of saying "sh*tty"), but this ranks right up there. Why are they printing hearsay like this? I haven't seen the article in print, BUT -- is there more? More to corroborate Tara Parker's assumptions re. "the crack dance," or her judgement that "she doesn’t believe Seguin could have got that high that fast"? Ms Parker "knows" that "he went for those cops" and that "he was right out of his head," eh? Well, lordy mama, judge & jury in one. Well done, Tara. The voice of the people has spoken, I guess. If it were a Provincial gov't. Minister, would Mr. MacLeod have given him the same unqualified sort of space, hmmm?

Oh, but this is Monday, the poseur magazine capable of claiming to be against capitalist exploitation on all fronts, even while it publishes articles on Jesus-, Virgin Mary-, or Buddha-shaped butt plugs, extolling their virtues. Never mind that these are crappy (sorry, bad joke) items made for probably 25 cents a piece in some off-shore sweat shop, but sold by counter-cultural ueber-cool alternative types (did I mention how kewl they are?] for $12.95 or something. Oh yeah, that kind of capitalism is ok by Monday's "standards" <kof kof>, maybe 'cause any little old shit can stick a butt plug up his arse (especially if s/he can't get the real thing -- equality and democracy and ease of access to all, y'all!), but in business-as-usual, just remember who you have to stick it to.

(My vehement little rant is sparked by a column about said butt plugs, some weeks/ months ago. I'm an atheist -- I do not object on religious grounds. I object on the ground of Monday being full of cant without being willing to admit to it.)

Look, maybe the guy was high on crack. My problem is: is it legitimate to speculate on it in this way? To print the this assumption as though it were fact?

And to what end?
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#49 Holden West

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 07:51 PM

That was the entire article. Yep, pretty poor judgement on Monday's part. I suppose it'll all be clear when the autopsy results are released. Although I will mention that in all my years I have never heard of a man who went out at 8 pm to do an "errand" that didn't involve cigarettes, alcohol, drugs or sex. I'm jus' sayin' ... :P
"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

#50 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 08:23 PM

Maybe it's true that he used crack cocaine -- those 8pm "errands" can get pretty involved. I just hate Monday's double standard. It's so noxious, and ultimately cynical.
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#51 m0nkyman

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 09:06 PM

Two out of twelve shots actually hit hunh? Victoria police are better shots than I gave 'em credit for. That's pretty damned good for shooting at a moving target.

#52 homebrewer

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 10:17 PM

That was the entire article. Yep, pretty poor judgement on Monday's part. I suppose it'll all be clear when the autopsy results are released. Although I will mention that in all my years I have never heard of a man who went out at 8 pm to do an "errand" that didn't involve cigarettes, alcohol, drugs or sex. I'm jus' sayin' ... :P


I'd have a longer reply, but I have to go run an errand.

#53 homebrewer

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 10:20 PM

Two out of twelve shots actually hit hunh? Victoria police are better shots than I gave 'em credit for. That's pretty damned good for shooting at a moving target.


It's really not that difficult. Like anything, it improves with practice.
http://www.ipscbc.org/

#54 m0nkyman

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 10:26 PM

Two out of twelve shots actually hit hunh? Victoria police are better shots than I gave 'em credit for. That's pretty damned good for shooting at a moving target.


It's really not that difficult. Like anything, it improves with practice.
http://www.ipscbc.org/


There are no moving targets in IPSC.

I shoot [url=http://www.colwoodppc.com/introtoppc.htm:35f49]PPC[/url:35f49]. I also have a pretty good idea of how little practice most police officers make time for. Hitting a moving target is damned hard. Don't kid yourself.

#55 Caramia

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 10:52 PM

I'd be in favor of changing the laws so that the officers and city governments are immune from lawsuit too so that they can do their job without being Monday morning quarterbacked every time shit happens.


When I was a teenager two guys got in a bad fight in a parking lot on Douglas Street. Lots of people came out to watch the fight. When the police arrived both of the guys had knocked each other out, and people were busy putting jackets over them and calling the ambulance. The police came out swinging, and in the end 8 people ended up hospitalised. I watched in horror as a female police officer jumped on the back of a friend of mine who wasn't even involved and beat him with her club even after he was unconscious. He ended up brain damaged. The TC reported it as "drug related gang violence." The police officer involved remained on the force.

I still choke at the injustice of that night. It changed the way I look at everything.

I would definitely not be in favour of changing the laws to further protect police officers from their actions. Accountability is the only way to prevent "accidents" like that from happening. I have no problem with the way that the police handled this recent incident, and I respect the fact that they were shaken by what they did, and that they are being investigated. I would have liked to have seen the officer who ruined a gentle and smart boy's life act shaken. I would have liked to have heard of some investigation.
Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
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#56 Holden West

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 11:41 PM

^Caramia, I wonder if when arriving on scene, the cops told the kids to get back away from the victims so they could sort out the mess and got some back talk or some sort of non-cooperation in return. I'm not saying the kids did anything wrong, but nothing bugs a cop more than trying to disperse a crowd and instead of simply standing back getting 20 people in their face yelling, "but officer, you don't understand..."

Two out of twelve shots actually hit hunh? Victoria police are better shots than I gave 'em credit for. That's pretty damned good for shooting at a moving target.


It's really not that difficult. Like anything, it improves with practice.
http://www.ipscbc.org/


There are no moving targets in IPSC.

I shoot [url=http://www.colwoodppc.com/introtoppc.htm:e7a1c]PPC[/url:e7a1c]. I also have a pretty good idea of how little practice most police officers make time for. Hitting a moving target is damned hard. Don't kid yourself.


Wasn't there an American marksman who gave a seminar to local cops last year on pistol accuracy under stress? IIRC, he was saying cops that are expert shots on the range have terrible accuracy under stress in real life situations.
"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

#57 Mike K.

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 11:53 PM

One of the shooters was part of the ERT, so if his shots missed the target more often than they hit then it gives you an idea of how difficult the whole situation was.

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#58 Willa

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 11:57 PM

Actually, I think two of the shooters were on the ERT.

#59 renthefinn

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 03:29 AM

I'd be in favor of changing the laws so that the officers and city governments are immune from lawsuit too so that they can do their job without being Monday morning quarterbacked every time shit happens.


When I was a teenager two guys got in a bad fight in a parking lot on Douglas Street. Lots of people came out to watch the fight. When the police arrived both of the guys had knocked each other out, and people were busy putting jackets over them and calling the ambulance. The police came out swinging, and in the end 8 people ended up hospitalised. I watched in horror as a female police officer jumped on the back of a friend of mine who wasn't even involved and beat him with her club even after he was unconscious. He ended up brain damaged. The TC reported it as "drug related gang violence." The police officer involved remained on the force.

I still choke at the injustice of that night. It changed the way I look at everything.

I would definitely not be in favour of changing the laws to further protect police officers from their actions. Accountability is the only way to prevent "accidents" like that from happening. I have no problem with the way that the police handled this recent incident, and I respect the fact that they were shaken by what they did, and that they are being investigated. I would have liked to have seen the officer who ruined a gentle and smart boy's life act shaken. I would have liked to have heard of some investigation.


That's a terrible storey, I hope karma works. I had a friend who was beat up not by cops, but bouncers out in the middle of the street, got a skull fracture and had to undergo many surgeries. The bouncers were never charged, and the Vic police didn't even really pursue the case. It's shamefull.

#60 Rorschach

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 07:10 AM

If cops act unreasonably, i.e., no properly trained officer would ever do it, I would not favor any immunity at all. I suppose the concept I'm thinking of is a qualified immunity for discretionary acts. I would never give Carte Blanche to any class of people - that would lead to abuse.

Personally, I believe the only reasonable use of force is in self-defense or defense of others. Did your brain damaged friend successfully sue the city and the officers?

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