1571 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

Yes. It’s going to make housing much more expensive to deliver, rent, and maintain.

Ismo’s not going to approve.

[Mike K.]

Yes. It’s going to make housing much more expensive to deliver, rent, and maintain.

Ismo’s not going to approve.

[Victoria Watcher]

Yes. It’s going to make housing much more expensive to deliver, rent, and maintain.

Ismo’s not going to approve.

I think utility bills will be cheaper though.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 07 April 2023 - 12:22 PM.

[Mike K.]

Just remember, folks. $450,000 to $1 million, and then up to the stratosphere depending on location, is the -land- cost of every single family dwelling in the CRD.

For a condo, it’s $40,000 to $100,000k. For townhomes it’s somewhere in between that and SFDs.

We can’t build our way out of the affordability situation. We can make more land available for building on, though.

[Mike K.]

Yes. It’s going to make housing much more expensive to deliver, rent, and maintain.

Ismo’s not going to approve.

I think utility bills will be cheaper though.

First you have to spend the $150,000 more, to save the $90/month.

[Barrrister]

Should pay for itself in about never,

[LJ]

I read an article that said government (all levels) taxes result in 25% of the cost in building apartments.

 

If you want to make housing more affordable, stop taxing the hell out of it.

[Mike K.]

It’s a third in Vancouver, according to the UDI. Taxes, municipal fees and permitting costs account for 29% of the cost.

It’s a huge business for government. Now they’ve decided every single-family lot can accommodate up to four units.

What do we think that’ll do to property taxes, when those taxes are assessed on the highest potential use of the property, not it’s current use?

[GaryOak]

Well if every lot is able to be turned into 4 Houses that would mean that no property has an advantage over another to build on, in contrast to if you have 2 single family properties and one gets rezoned for 4 units but the the other doesn't the one with the greater potential for development would get a higher property tax. So if every lot is rezoned at the same time no one would experience a change in property tax. So even if you're assesment goes up so does everyone else's .

[Mike K.]

SFD lots compared to each other in isolation, yes, but we have to compare them to all other properties, namely townhome-zoned properties and multi-unit SFD properties, like houses with a zoned suite or duplexes with suites.

In other words, the value proposition of a 4-unit lot is higher than a 1-unit lot, and therefor the assessed value will be higher, if for nothing else than alignment with a townhome lot’s value.

[GaryOak]

I'm not saying the assessed value wouldn't go up I'm just saying that you're property tax wouldn't go up, due to how the tax is divided amongst properties. Lets do a hypothetical example, say you have a municipality of 100 properties all SFD and a $500,000 operating budget so ever property pays an average of $5,000. To make it simple let's say the municipality doesn't need to increase the operating budget for the next year, wonderful! Lets also say that some government comes in and and rezoned all the properties to 4 units/lot and as a result every property's assed value doubles but the operating budget hasn't changed so every property is still only paying $5,000 in property tax.

[Victoria Watcher]

I'm not saying the assessed value wouldn't go up I'm just saying that you're property tax wouldn't go up, due to how the tax is divided amongst properties. Lets do a hypothetical example, say you have a municipality of 100 properties all SFD and a $500,000 operating budget so ever property pays an average of $5,000. To make it simple let's say the municipality doesn't need to increase the operating budget for the next year, wonderful! Lets also say that some government comes in and and rezoned all the properties to 4 units/lot and as a result every property's assed value doubles but the operating budget hasn't changed so every property is still only paying $5,000 in property tax.

 

PENALTY:  You just designed the opposite of a 15-minute city.  No coffee shops, no food store, no workplaces.

 

Mods, I suggest a 15-month suspension.  

[GaryOak]

The tax distribution will only start to change when the development starts being realized. But then again the municipal operating costs per housing unit will decrease on average as more units are added.

[GaryOak]

PENALTY: You just designed the opposite of a 15-minute city. No coffee shops, no food store, no workplace.

I'll take that as you agree with my conclusion since you're trying to use a strawman argument to refute it.

[Victoria Watcher]

I'll take that as you agree with my conclusion since you're trying to use a strawman argument to refute it.

 

Yes, I'm just being silly.  I understood your accurate argument before you had to give Mike the example.

[GaryOak]

Thank you

[Victoria Watcher]

I mean let's face it.  And I'll be very clear here.

 

Reports that say that something hasn't happened in local property matters is always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our city and other cities, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 08 April 2023 - 09:44 AM.

[Mike K.]

I'm not saying the assessed value wouldn't go up I'm just saying that you're property tax wouldn't go up, due to how the tax is divided amongst properties. Lets do a hypothetical example, say you have a municipality of 100 properties all SFD and a $500,000 operating budget so ever property pays an average of $5,000. To make it simple let's say the municipality doesn't need to increase the operating budget for the next year, wonderful! Lets also say that some government comes in and and rezoned all the properties to 4 units/lot and as a result every property's assed value doubles but the operating budget hasn't changed so every property is still only paying $5,000 in property tax.

 

It will put more tax cost pressure on the SFD lots, relative to townhomes or condos.

[Barrrister]

GaryOak: I am not sure that your analysis is correct. Your example of everything starting as a single family home is the flaw. Start with a hundred lots half of which are zoned SFH and the other half are duplexes. The duplexes per lot pay more than the single family homes. Once you rezone the SFH then they will pay a higher percentage and closer to the the duplexes since the assessments of the duplexes stay the same while single family homes go up. (If you dont like duplexes use condos). 

 

This is rather a basic math question.

[Mike K.]

Correct.

 

Gary got mixed up in everything staying equal because all SFDs will be up-zoned, but they're being up-zoned in the context of existing townhome and condo-zoned properties, which means, on average, the tax burden on existing townhome and condo-zoned properties will decrease, but the SFD tax burden will increase.