80 replies to this topic

[Gipper]

but why? 11 months. why not lay charges this coming monday or wednesday? or last tuesday?

that's my point. this was carefully timed.

Speaking generally major crime police tend to make arrests on a Friday or Saturday if they can pre-plan it because then they have the weekend to interview the suspects before the sheriffs come on Monday to take them to court.

As for 11 months, that's typical in BC these days because Crown expects full disclosure before laying a charge. Lab reports, phone records analysis, video review, etc all take months. Crown does not want to lay a charge and then have the Jordan clock run out because of delayed disclosure.

[Victoria Watcher]

Speaking generally major crime police tend to make arrests on a Friday or Saturday if they can pre-plan it because then they have the weekend to interview the suspects before the sheriffs come on Monday to take them to court.

 

this does not apply.  these guys are already both in jail.  they have had 11 months to try to interview them.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 13 June 2020 - 02:06 PM.

[Gipper]

this does not apply. these guys are already both in jail.

No, they're in prison. On an unrelated conviction.

[Victoria Watcher]

As for 11 months, that's typical in BC these days because Crown expects full disclosure before laying a charge. Lab reports, phone records analysis, video review, etc all take months. Crown does not want to lay a charge and then have the Jordan clock run out because of delayed disclosure.

 

and that's fine too.  but my point was and still is:

 

they had 11 month to do all this.  then they decide to do it on a saturday.

[Victoria Watcher]

No, they're in prison. On an unrelated conviction.

 

i think you know what i mean.

[Gipper]

i think you know what i mean.

The police need to put them in police custody before they attempt an interview or else the suspects can just tell the prison guard to take them back to their cell. Once the suspects are back in police custody and under arrest they no longer have that option and need to remain in the room while police speak to them.

Edited by Gipper, 13 June 2020 - 02:15 PM.

[Victoria Watcher]

which all could be done on monday or tuesday or wednesday or thursday.

 

or are you suggesting the friday or saturday arrest means they can torture them with sleep deprivation while trying to extract a confession during 48 hours of "interviews"?

 

in any event this would not be so suspicious if not for all the other failings that they (corrections and rcmp) likely do not want to be dredged back up.  several instances of hours of delays between the escape and citizen notifications.  plus the items i mention above (oak bay police and employer problems).

 

there is at least 5 failures just on this file.

• corrections
• rcmp
• oak bay police
• employer (government)
• employee union

 

these two suspects are a waste of skin anyway.  i have no concern for them.

 

but when a fairly rare prison break happens all the parties involved have to be lots smarter.  many failed and an innocent citizen is dead.

 

i'm not discounting the fact that he might have been dead anyway.  we don't know the time of death. but either  does the medical authorities since everyone else failed and he was not found for many days, thus widening the possible time/date of death.  and likely adding the the difficulty should this go to trial.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 13 June 2020 - 02:28 PM.

[Gipper]

which all could be done on monday or tuesday or wednesday or thursday.

or are you suggesting the friday or saturday arrest means they can torture them with sleep deprivation while trying to extract a confession during 48 hours of "interviews"?

Courts are fine with a workday's worth of interviewing with appropriate food, bathroom, and smoke breaks, and during reasonable hours. All depending on the severity of the crime, the manner in which the interview is conducted, and the volume of material to go over.

Police can do an interview on a weekday after an arrest but it gets very rushed and is less than ideal.

[Mike K.]

The stolen car thing I can’t figure out. You know where it’s registered, and you don’t check? During a prison break?

Maybe they did check the home. Maybe they checked it multiple times. But I would be very suspicious if nobody was answering the door and the car was not reported stolen.

[Victoria Watcher]

you probably don’t check because now we have multiple jurisdictions.

i think they just treated the truck as an abandoned vehicle and made little effort to find out more. just tagged and towed like normal. not reported stolen. so just left to the tow lot to deal with. no longer a police matter. until it was.

in fairness I’m sure police find all manner of abandoned vehicles and often have trouble tracing them back to owner. owner does not always have up to date address registration. in 99% of those cases they get resolved with the owner showing up at the tow compound to claim. that police resource has done its job. case closed.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 14 June 2020 - 08:32 AM.

[Mike K.]

Yeah, during a prison break. I mean when we had heard about the truck my first thought was “who the hell dumps a stolen vehicle in Oak Bay!? This is so suspicious.”

And for it to have been towed without any follow-up is unfathomable to me, and yet it appears that’s exactly what happened.

[A Girl is No one]

Not sure if you saw this. The Capital has goog coverage here: https://www.capnews....gation-override

[max.bravo]

My issue is less with the policing, and more with the prison. I don't understand why the community isn't up in arms about this. 

The prison let two people escape-- unnoticed for several hours. They murdered someone, possibly without provocation. And the response from the community is silence? Strange.

[Victoria Watcher]

My issue is less with the policing, and more with the prison. I don't understand why the community isn't up in arms about this. 

The prison let two people escape-- unnoticed for several hours. They murdered someone, possibly without provocation. And the response from the community is silence? Strange.

 

https://www.timescol...says-1.24152798

 

Metchosin Mayor John Ranns says until Ottawa stops sending higher-risk violent criminals to the minimum-security prison in his community, he can’t assure residents are safe in the face of prison outbreaks.

 

James Lee Busch and Zachary Armitage, who escaped William Head Insitution on July 7, have each being charged with first-degree murder related to the death of resident Martin Payne.

[Mike K.]

My issue is less with the policing, and more with the prison. I don't understand why the community isn't up in arms about this.
The prison let two people escape-- unnoticed for several hours. They murdered someone, possibly without provocation. And the response from the community is silence? Strange.

Don’t worry. Once Wendy’s takes over their social media accounts they’ll develop a brilliant strategy to re-brand Metchosin as the safest places on earth next to a porous federal penitentiary.

[Victoria Watcher]

The William Head housemate’s complaint hadn’t been the first indication that Busch wasn’t a good fit for a minimum-security institution, but upper management had ignored the warning signs, according to three William Head staff members who requested anonymity because they weren’t authorized to speak to the media. “We had continual problems with his behaviour,” said a correctional officer. “He had run-ins with staff and attitude problems. He punched another inmate.”

 

“I knew him well,” another correctional officer said. “He should never have been there in the first place.”

 

 

Not long before Busch and Armitage escaped, one staff member told The Capital,- “I provided my concerns to management” about Busch. “I felt that he no longer belonged at the institution—the risk was too great.”

 

William Head’s warden, Trent Mitchell, did not respond to The Capital's requests for comment on this story. Instead, all questions were forwarded to Correctional Service Canada, which cited the Privacy Act in declining to provide any information relating to Busch and Armitage’s behaviour at William Head.

 

 

link:  https://www.capnews....gation-override

 

EXCLUSIVE: The Behind-the-Scenes Story of How Ignored Warnings at William Head Allowed A Killer to Escape

Our months-long investigation into the correctional system failures now alleged to have resulted in a Metchosin man murdered in his home

 

https://www.capnews....gation-override

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 14 June 2020 - 01:35 PM.

[Victoria Watcher]

to me the biggest issue is still all the delays.

 

is there really no formal protocol for timely notifications upon the escape of prisoners from a federal prison?  or is this another "weekend" problem?  sunday night nobody in authority is around to do things properly.

 

clearly the rcmp has no plan.  do the saanich police have a plan for wilkinson road?

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 14 June 2020 - 01:45 PM.

[todd]

to me the biggest issue is still all the delays.
 
is there really no formal protocol for timely notifications upon the escape of prisoners from a federal prison?  or is this another "weekend" problem?  sunday night nobody in authority is around to do things properly.
 
clearly the rcmp has no plan.  do the saanich police have a plan for wilkinson road?

“Escapes were a frequent occurrence, averaging 22 a year in the early 1970s alone. Whenever an escape was discovered, a horn sounded, lights went on and police with sirens and dogs showed up”: https://www.timescol...d-jail-1.641516

[pontcanna]

Ex-William Head inmates accused of murder applying to have trial moved

SEPTEMBER 8, 2021


Inmates James Busch, left, and Zachary Armitage are charged with killing a Metchosin man in July 2019 after escaping from William Head prison

Two former William Head inmates charged with killing a Metchosin man during an escape attempt in July 2019 are applying to the B.C. Supreme Court to have their trial moved.

James Lee Busch and Zachary Armitage are charged with the first-degree murder of Martin Payne, 60.

On Wednesday, defence lawyer Jim Heller, who is representing Armitage and acting as agent for Busch, said the two accused will make a change-of-venue application on Oct. 15. It’s expected the two men will appear by video during the day-long hearing.

 

More: https://www.timescol...oved-1.24356446
 

[pontcanna]

Pair charged with killing Metchosin man after escaping prison will go to trial in November

A Vancouver B.C. Supreme Court jury will hear the murder case against two men who allegedly killed a Metchosin man after escaping from a local prison.

 

James Lee Busch, left, and Zachary Armitage are charged with first-degree murder in connection with the July 2019 death of Martin Payne.

The B.C. Supreme Court jury trial of two inmates charged with killing a man during a Vancouver Island prison break almost three years ago will go ahead Nov. 15.

The pair successfully applied to have their trial moved to Vancouver. Evidence, submissions and Justice Michael Tammen’s reasons for the change-of-venue decision cannot be reported due to a publication ban.

Justice Janet Winteringham heard Jan. 12 that a pre-trial conference might be needed to deal with jury selection issues. A hearing may also take place to hear an application on the validity of a DNA warrant.

Also, given the change of venue, Winteringham vacated a previous court decision saying Busch must be held at Victoria’s Wilkinson Road jail.

The trial is expected to last five weeks.

 

More: https://www.timescol...ovember-4952952