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215 graves at Kamloops residential school | Discussion, news, and what we know so far


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#1 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 28 May 2021 - 04:39 PM

Remains of 215 children found buried at former B.C. residential school, First Nation says

 

Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc say ground-penetrating radar was used to locate remains

 

https://www.cbc.ca/n...chool-1.6043778

 

 


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 28 May 2021 - 04:40 PM.


#2 todd

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Posted 29 May 2021 - 08:22 AM

Time to get rid of all public schools.

#3 max.bravo

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Posted 29 May 2021 - 08:35 PM

Something about this story doesn’t add up. Will be interesting to hear the outcome of exhumation and forensic work. If it’s what they claim it is, truly shocking and sickening.

#4 amor de cosmos

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 08:19 AM

Preliminary findings from a survey of the grounds at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School have uncovered the remains of 215 children buried at the site, the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation said Thursday.

 

The First Nation said the remains were confirmed last weekend near the city of Kamloops, in B.C.'s southern Interior. 

 

In a statement, Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc said they hired a specialist in ground-penetrating radar to carry out the work, and that their language and culture department oversaw the project to ensure it was done in a culturally appropriate and respectful way. The release did not specify the company or individual involved, or how the work was completed. 

 

"To our knowledge, these missing children are undocumented deaths," Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc Kukpi7 (Chief) Rosanne Casimir said in the statement.

 

"Some were as young as three years old. We sought out a way to confirm that knowing out of deepest respect and love for those lost children and their families, understanding that Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc is the final resting place of these children."

https://www.cbc.ca/n...chool-1.6043778



#5 m3m

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 09:23 AM

Why are y’all so skeptical of the discovery?
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#6 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 09:28 AM

because we have no information on the technology or the company that did the work, no expert has spoken.

and it’s rather dubious to speculate on the age of the remains (ie. a 3/year-old) when no recovery has been made.


The band is now laying the groundwork for what will likely be a multi-year process of identifying, repatriating and telling the stories of the children. That effort could involve the B.C. Coroners service, the Royal B.C. Museum and forensics experts.


http://globalnews.ca...site-framework/



it sounds to me it should be a crime scene and treated accordingly. but don’t bet on it.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 30 May 2021 - 09:33 AM.


#7 Mike K.

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 09:37 AM

Is there any chance this could be a cemetery that was poorly marked, and eventually in some way forgotten? Is that possible for a cemetery from the early 20th century?

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#8 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 11:19 AM

Why are y’all so skeptical of the discovery?

 

also in an admittedly not super-thorough search, i cannot find any reference to possible burials on this site in any news item from the year 2000 to May 15, 2021.

 

this marking system does not look too scientific.

 

https://www.theglobe...ool-site-in-bc/

 

7BON52L2BNLGLBJXPPVPTV5V2A.jpg

Wooden stakes mark areas where bodies are believed to be buried on the site of the former Kamloops Indian Residential School on Tk’emlups te Secwépemc First Nation in Kamloops, B.C., on May 27, 2021.

 

wouldn't there be an entire grid system worked out?


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 30 May 2021 - 11:30 AM.


#9 Rob Randall

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 12:23 PM

I don't think the physical grid system is laid out until actual excavation begins. I have no doubt about what lies there.


Edited by Rob Randall, 30 May 2021 - 12:24 PM.

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#10 max.bravo

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 02:20 PM

Google “ground penetrating radar cemetery” and the images show you what kind of certainty is possible using this technology.
Even with cutting edge 3d modelling of the scans, there’s no possible scenario in which the age of a child can be identified. The fact they’re saying a 3 year old when it’s physically impossible to know that should make you question things.
I also wonder why the ground penetrating radar specialist silent. If it was my company and i had full confidence in my findings, I’d be promoting my work right now.
Most likely scenario is that local gpr proprietor did find an unmarked cemetery, and with the “help” of the Elders they’ve made their own meaning- like, really really jumping the gun.
For the record i have no doubt there are remains, and I’m personally aware of and sickened by residential schools. that’s why there’s no reason to exaggerate the truth or muddy it with information that’s obtained through “Indigenous ways of knowing” rather than plain facts. I’m pretty sure that’s what is going on here.
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#11 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 02:24 PM

i'm not 100% sure but i believe this school is/was on the current indian reserve grounds.

 

which makes it more difficult to take it all at face value.



#12 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 04:13 PM

Google “ground penetrating radar cemetery” and the images show you what kind of certainty is possible using this technology.
Even with cutting edge 3d modelling of the scans, there’s no possible scenario in which the age of a child can be identified. The fact they’re saying a 3 year old when it’s physically impossible to know that should make you question things.

 

 

Image-2.png

 

GeoModel_GPR_Cemetery80.jpg


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 30 May 2021 - 04:14 PM.


#13 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 04:38 PM

Why are y’all so skeptical of the discovery?

 

Nicole Schabus, a law professor at Thompson Rivers University, said each of her first-year law students at the Kamloops university spends at least one day at the former residential school speaking with survivors.

 

"I'm so grateful to the survivors who had so generously shared their stories," she said.

 

Schabus said she did not hear survivors talk about an unmarked grave area, "but they all talk about the kids who didn't make it."

 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/n...s-b-c-1.6045807


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 30 May 2021 - 04:38 PM.


#14 max.bravo

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 04:52 PM

i'm not 100% sure but i believe this school is/was on the current indian reserve grounds.

which makes it more difficult to take it all at face value.


Yes, it’s on the reserve. Which means they’ll control how much (if any) of the site is excavated/exhumed. media will repeat as truth whatever facts the band tells us about the site, regardless of how the facts are obtained (or how true they are).

I believe that psychic ancestor/spirit communication (if performed by an Elder) is considered a reliable source of information within the Indigenous ways of knowing.

#15 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 04:57 PM

one thing people fail to take into account when shocked by the amount of death by children attending residential school is that death in children generally was at least 10x or 20x more prevalent than it is today.  so white European background children in Canada had only a 90% chance of reaching their 15th birthday in 1900.  that rose to almost 95% by 1950 and closer to 99.5% today.

 

between 1800 and 1900 one quarter of kids died in their first year and almost half never made it to 15 years old.


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 30 May 2021 - 05:03 PM.


#16 max.bravo

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 05:01 PM

https://www.kamloops...ears-1.24324160

On the front page of the April 25, 2008, edition of Kamloops This Week was a story by then-reporter (and now Vancouver Sun city editor) Cassidy Olivier, with the headline, “Burial ground — or bogus?”
The story detailed claims by Kevin Annett, spokesman for the Friends and Relatives of the Disappeared, that the land surrounding the former Kamloops Indian Residential School contained the remains of children who once walked the building’s halls.


This is very interesting.

Annett is also the man behind unproven claims that Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip took 10 children from the Kamloops Indian Residential School on a picnic in September 1964 and that the children were never seen again.


Edited by max.bravo, 30 May 2021 - 05:03 PM.


#17 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 05:06 PM

The story detailed claims by Kevin Annett, spokesman for the Friends and Relatives of the Disappeared, that the land surrounding the former Kamloops Indian Residential School contained the remains of children who once walked the building’s halls.

 

Annett told KTW that not only did he have documentation to prove his allegations, but he also had eyewitnesses who would testify to witnessing several burials in the land adjacent to the residential school and the surrounding orchard.

 

But Annett’s claims that Tk’emlups was home to a mass grave were met with stiff opposition and severe doubt by local and regional Catholic Church officials, who in 2008 told KTW his allegations rested solely on anecdotal evidence and rumour.

 

(Annett is also the man behind unproven claims that Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip took 10 children from the Kamloops Indian Residential School on a picnic in September 1964 and that the children were never seen again. The royal couple did not visit B.C. during that time, though they were in Ontario, , Quebec and Prince Edward Island in October 1964. Annett is a former United Church minister who was removed from that position in 1997. Today, he is known for rejecting Canadian governance, has established what he calls the Republic of Kanata and is a vocal opponent of COVID-19 vaccinations and pandemic-related safety measures.)

 

https://www.kamloops...ears-1.24324160


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 30 May 2021 - 05:07 PM.


#18 max.bravo

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 05:08 PM

one thing people fail to take into account when shocked by the amount of death by children attending residential school is that death in children generally was at least 10x or 20x more prevalent than it is today. so white European background children in Canada had only a 90% chance of reaching their 15th birthday in 1900. that rose to almost 95% by 1950 and closer to 99.5% today.

between 1800 and 1900 one quarter of kids died in their first year and almost half never made it to 15 years old.


I don’t get this reasoning. It’s no less horrific If these children died of ‘natural causes’ after having been yanked from their homes and cultures. If anything, the government and church should’ve been held to a higher standard of care than “normal death rates” given what they were doing.

#19 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 05:17 PM

I don’t get this reasoning. It’s no less horrific If these children died of ‘natural causes’ after having been yanked from their homes and cultures. If anything, the government and church should’ve been held to a higher standard of care than “normal death rates” given what they were doing.

i don't think you understand me. when people hear about the number of deaths in residential schools they assume that these kids died from neglect or poor care. when children outside of the system were also dying at the same rate or higher.

they do not take into historical context the amount of childhood death that occurred in the past because it is so markedly different than it is today. and people can't or don't understand the context of extremely high rates of childhood death in the past. it's quite understandably hard to get your head around.

but when we read a headline about "6,000 kids died in residential schools" it's never placed in context of how many school-aged kids died in general in the same region or in the same part of Canada over the same period.*

and now even today indigenous persons in Canada have a life expectancy almost 10 years less than the Canadian population as a whole.



* for example. in 1950 there were about 13,500,000 people living in Canada. and that year about 365,000 people were born. in that same year about 35,000 kids under 15 died.

https://knoema.com/a...nada/Birth-rate
https://www.macrotre...nada/population

the highest estimates of residential school deaths is 6,000 total. over 80+ years.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 30 May 2021 - 05:46 PM.


#20 max.bravo

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Posted 30 May 2021 - 05:21 PM

Ah, i see.

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