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215 graves at Kamloops residential school | Discussion, news, and what we know so far


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#41 Mike K.

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 09:10 AM

I take it you mean do not. I agree, the media is pushing a narrative that thus far lacks scientific evidence, but they’re also very careful to allude to the findings as opinions or suggestions. There’s a bit of journalistic trickery going on where they’re reporting something on the precipice of fact without actually standing behind it, I feel.

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#42 Rob Randall

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 09:16 AM

All media is reporting that the graves of 215 children have been found. No qualifications. If I were an editor I would want to qualify that with the phrase "evidence of..." until further information comes to light, especially considering the opaqueness of the search and discovery process. I think people are getting a little ahead of their skis.


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“I mean I just don’t understand the big Texas part, like maybe he’s from Texas? I want to know the back story.”


#43 max.bravo

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 09:21 AM

All media is reporting that the graves of 215 children have been found. No qualifications. If I were an editor I would want to qualify that with the phrase "evidence of..." until further information comes to light, especially considering the opaqueness of the search and discovery process. I think people are getting a little ahead of their skis.

Careful, you'd be dangerously close to getting cancelled if you were to say this out loud in most workplaces/schools.



#44 Mike K.

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 09:24 AM

All media is reporting that the graves of 215 children have been found. No qualifications. If I were an editor I would want to qualify that with the phrase "evidence of..." until further information comes to light, especially considering the opaqueness of the search and discovery process. I think people are getting a little ahead of their skis.


Yes, they certainly state have been found, according to specific people and the firm that did the work. Usually they would not be so forward with their titles, but given the sensitivity of such a discovery it is assumed that they feel the claims are beyond doubt.

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#45 spanky123

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 09:30 AM

^We've already established more kids died back then. Are you saying residential school children got equal or better health care than white children and that death rates are similar? Of course not, so why waste energy typing it?

 

I don't think the exercise is comparing health care to that of white kids although it was horrendous for both. I was pointing out that the article lacked historical context and within that context the fact that 215 children passed away over 80 years was not unusual unfortunately. Some media are portraying this as genocide.


Edited by spanky123, 31 May 2021 - 09:31 AM.

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#46 spanky123

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 09:33 AM

All media is reporting that the graves of 215 children have been found. No qualifications. If I were an editor I would want to qualify that with the phrase "evidence of..." until further information comes to light, especially considering the opaqueness of the search and discovery process. I think people are getting a little ahead of their skis.

 

And the problem is that there is now a lot of motivation to ensure that the outcome matches the narrative.



#47 phx

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 02:32 PM

Careful, you'd be dangerously close to getting cancelled if you were to say this out loud in most workplaces/schools.

For sure, the narrative is set and there is no possibility of discussion.


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#48 Rex Waverly

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 03:11 PM

For sure, the narrative is set and there is no possibility of discussion.

Jesus, the 'narrative' has been set for some time now.... residential schools were part of a system of cultural genocide that aimed to wipe out native culture in an attempt to 'civilize' the natives. To this end, children were forcibly separated from their parents and taken to these 'schools' where they often were abused, went missing, or died. This latest discovery doesn't change the narrative, only adds an extra couple of sentences to it.  

 

I mean, even if it turns out that these 215 bodies are unrelated to the residential school (and come on, what are the odds that one of these horrible places just happened to be built on a mass child grave?), it doesn't make the history of these 'schools' any less despicable.


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#49 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 03:19 PM

the announcer at the NHL hockey game tonight said "215 lives taken".

 

did not know murder had now been proven in each of these cases.  


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 31 May 2021 - 03:20 PM.


#50 Rex Waverly

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 03:31 PM

the announcer at the NHL hockey game tonight said "215 lives taken".

 

did not know murder had now been proven in each of these cases.  

Sure, it would have been more accurate to say that '215 child-sized bodies have been discovered on the grounds of an institution which has a history of causing the deaths of hundreds of children, including 51 known about at this particular building'. 

 

I mean, is it really unreasonable to assume that, when finding child graves on the grounds of a child-killing institution, that they might be related?  I guess it could all be a coincidence..... wouldn't want to tarnish the good name of residential schools without waiting for the full investigation!


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#51 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 03:37 PM

you'd think there would be a few staff death-bed confessions if the whole thing was an organized child-killing program.  i think it's much more complex than that.



#52 Rob Randall

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 03:43 PM

The church admits 51 and they are quite open about that. The implication is upwards of 150 kids over the years died and the deaths weren't tallied, either from bad bookkeeping or cover-up. The school operated until the late 60s so many people involved may still be around so why this is being treated as a sad memorial rather than an urgent mass-murder crime scene is a mystery to me. There should be airlifts of forensic teams there now.


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“I mean I just don’t understand the big Texas part, like maybe he’s from Texas? I want to know the back story.”


#53 Rob Randall

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 03:49 PM

you'd think there would be a few staff death-bed confessions if the whole thing was an organized child-killing program.  i think it's much more complex than that.

 

I'm sure some of it is; a kid gets injured or falls ill, they look at him and wonder if he should be taken to the hospital and they go, nah, he'll sleep it off, and next day he dies of sepsis or something and it gets marked as natural causes but it was really neglect.


“I mean I just don’t understand the big Texas part, like maybe he’s from Texas? I want to know the back story.”


#54 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 03:49 PM

The church admits 51 and they are quite open about that. The implication is upwards of 150 kids over the years died and the deaths weren't tallied, either from bad bookkeeping or cover-up. The school operated until the late 60s so many people involved may still be around so why this is being treated as a sad memorial rather than an urgent mass-murder crime scene is a mystery to me. There should be airlifts of forensic teams there now.

 

also, at least some faith denominations/are were VERY good at death and birth and wedding record-keeping.   that truly was their thing, really.

 

suspicious this place was poor.



#55 spanky123

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 03:57 PM

I'm sure some of it is; a kid gets injured or falls ill, they look at him and wonder if he should be taken to the hospital and they go, nah, he'll sleep it off, and next day he dies of sepsis or something and it gets marked as natural causes but it was really neglect.

 

I think that is a leap. There is no evidence that the nuns at these Catholic schools were any less caring then as they are today.

 

In the late 1800's there were no antibiotics, there were no effective treatments for TB and other diseases, people were buried where they died. Between 33%-50% of white kids never made it to the age of 5.

 

Even if there are bodies related to the school buried, there is no evidence at all that it was due to anything other than natural causes.



#56 Rob Randall

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 04:01 PM

In Kamloops if you ran away they tossed you in the dirt basement with a ball and chain to your leg.


“I mean I just don’t understand the big Texas part, like maybe he’s from Texas? I want to know the back story.”


#57 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 04:06 PM

what is the percentage of Canadians buried in marked, upkept graves since 1880?   i'd guess less than 10 or 20%.


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 31 May 2021 - 04:07 PM.


#58 Rex Waverly

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 04:14 PM

you'd think there would be a few staff death-bed confessions if the whole thing was an organized child-killing program.  i think it's much more complex than that.

Well, to be fair, I don't think their explicit goal was child murder.  Pretty sure the goal was the eradication of the the native culture, not the people themselves. I don't think the deaths were intentional (in most cases) but were a result of negligence and mistreatment. Probably just didn't realize that native kids enjoy food, medicine, and not getting beaten. 

 

Child negligent-homoicide doesn't have the same ring to it though. 


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#59 Danma

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 04:28 PM

https://archive.org/...age/14/mode/2up
 

"The story of a national crime : being an appeal for justice to the Indians of Canada ; the wards of the nation, our allies in the Revolutionary War, our brothers-in-arms in the Great War"

 

P.H. Bryce was a physician and chief medical officer of the Indian Department in the early 1900s. Published in 1922, this describes his terrible experiences with government inaction and cynicism towards the indigenous people suffering from a brutal tuberculosis pandemic.
 

 

It contained a brief history of the origin of the Indian Schools, of the sanitary condition of the schools and statistics of the health of the pupils, during the 15 years of their existence. Regarding the health of the pupils, the report states that 24 per cent, of all the pupils which had been in the schools were known to be dead, while of one school on the File Hills reserve, which gave a complete return to date, 75 per cent, were dead at the end of the 16 years since the school opened.

...

The Premier has frankly said he can give no encouraging answer to Dr, Beland's question, while at the same moment he condemns the Indians to their fate by a pitiable confession of utter official helplessness and lack of initiative, based upon a cynical "non possumus."


Thus we find a sum of only $10.000 has been annually placed in the estimates to control tuberculosis amongst 105,000 Indians scattered over Canada in over 300 bands, while the City of Ottawa, with about the same population and having three general hospitals spent thereon $342,860.54 in 1919 of which $33,364.70 is devoted to tuberculous patients alone. 

...

It is indeed pitiable that during the thirteen years since then this trail of disease and death has gone on almost unchecked by any serious efforts on the part of the Department of Indian Affairs, placed by the B. N. A. Act especially in charge of our Indian population, and that a Provincial Tuberculosis Commission now considers it to be its duty to publish the facts regarding these children living within its own Province.

 

Apparently a death rate of 75% (!!!) wasn't enough to get the Canadian Government to bother lifting a finger. This is neglect that would be considered criminal today, and through inaction the blood of those children are on the hands of our government.


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#60 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 04:36 PM

^ that misses historical context too.  that people simply can't grasp today.

 

before the 50's and 60's there was zero government-provided healthcare.  so middle-income and poor families had no "coverage" - indigenous or otherwise.  professional healthcare was only for the 1%.  and it was not very effective.


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 31 May 2021 - 04:38 PM.


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