1000 replies to this topic

[max.bravo]

Apologies if i'm misunderstanding you, but are you really insinuating that there is deliberate deception occurring here? One of the reasons the schools got away with what they did for so long is because the people wouldn't believe the First Nations claims.

 

The facts of the story are not in dispute; they don't need to disturb 215 children's graves to know for certain. It is known that residential schools often have unmarked graveyards. It was known that many children, some as young as 3, died at the Kamloops school, or went 'missing' and never seen again.  They have ground penetrating radar that shows 215 radar signatures that the right size / shape / depth for child graves.  

 

There's a preponderance of evidence that proves the claim. It may end up being 210 or 220 children, and maybe the youngest was 4, not 3.  But at this point, if you're nit-picking these details in an attempt to discredit the entire story, that's a pretty bad look IMO.

I'm saying that there's a wide gulf between Indigenous Ways of Knowing and Western ways of knowing. I don't doubt there are hundreds of bodies buried there. But if the claim is never allowed to be confirmed by a Western expert, then we won't really ever know for sure because Indigenous Ways of Knowing are so vastly different from Western ones, and we should verify claims by Western standards because objective truth matters. 

 

Check out this online course content from U of T re: Indigenous ways of knowing. Right up there beside empirical knowledge is Revealed Knowledge. Their press release even states they confirmed the findings with the help of their Knowledge Keepers. That makes me suspicious.

 

https://www.oise.uto...ys-of-knowing/ 

 

Sources of Indigenous Knowledge: #3 Revealed Knowledge. Indigenous knowledge is sometimes revealed through dreams, visions and intuitions. 

 

 

More Western/conservative organizations probably wouldn't use the word "confirmed" in their press release when the findings were preliminary (ie, nothing's been dug up, nobody's seen a child's remains in any other form than a radar blip.

 

More appropriate wording might've been "Using GPR we've found what appears to be an unmarked cemetery containing potentially hundreds of bodies, and based on oral histories it's likely these are undocumented victims of the residential school." 

 

But they said "This past weekend, with the help of a ground penetrating radar specialist, the stark truth of the preliminary findings came to light – the confirmation of the remains of 215 children who were students of the Kamloops Indian Residential School."

 

It's a subtle difference, but if Western ways of knowing are held back from the investigation entirely, then we'll have to take their word for whatever other information comes to light. And I'm not prepared to take at face value the information given to me by someone who thinks visions and intuitions are as valid as radiocarbon dating and forensic science.

 

I know it's a bad look, but I stand by it. (I also have the porch light on and a teddy bear outside, for the record).

[Victoria Watcher]

it's a bit unclear to me who is supposed to lead this entre investigation.

 

don't we let police do that?  aren't they above politics?  that way they are not directed by politicians and that way politicians are not able to move investigations away from themselves?

 

but i am unclear if anyone is in charge here.

[Victoria Watcher]

it's a bit unclear to me who is supposed to lead this entre investigation.

 

don't we let police do that?  aren't they above politics?  that way they are not directed by politicians and that way politicians are not able to move investigations away from themselves?

 

but i am unclear if anyone is in charge here.

 

What about the police and the coroner’s office?

 

The Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation says it is planning on “engaging with the coroner.”

 

The Post contacted the BC Coroners Service, which responded, in an email, that it had been notified of the discovery.

 

“We have offered any assistance within our mandate and, at the request of the Band Council, are now awaiting further information about their consultant’s report,” the email said.

 

The coroner’s office declined to say whether or not it had visited the scene, had seen any of the preliminary information or if it could confirm the preliminary findings.

 

In a statement, Staff-Sgt. Bill Wallace, the detachment commander with the Tk’emlúps Rural RCMP, said police officers have been to the site and are working with the community to determine “the best way to be involved in any investigative avenues explored going forward, while at the same time being supportive, respectful and culturally sensitive to the indigenous communities that are impacted.”

 

On Thursday, Murray Sinclair, a former senator and the former chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, said police in British Columbia had opened “a major investigation” into the discovery.

 

The RCMP did not respond as of press time.

 

 

https://nationalpost...ves-in-kamloops

 

 

 

 

i am unclear if anyone is in charge here.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 05 June 2021 - 12:33 PM.

[spanky123]

Until passive listening, watching, reading and truly hearing, wading through the mountains of information available due in no small part to the efforts First Nations, little will be achieved. 

 

What exactly is supposed to be achieved?  

[amor de cosmos]

Pope Francis met with both Vatican-based Canadian cardinals on Saturday as Canada reels from the discovery of the remains of about 215 children near a former residential school in Kamloops, B.C., run by the Catholic Church.
 
The Pope met separately with Cardinal Michael Czerny and Cardinal Marc Ouellet, the Vatican said in its daily announcement of papal appointments.
 
Ouellet meets with the Pope every Saturday in his capacity as head of the Vatican department that oversees bishops.
 
Czerny, the Vatican's expert on migrants and refugees, does not have a regular weekly meeting with the pontiff. He is a Czech-born Canadian national whose family immigrated to Montreal when he was two years old.
 
While the Vatican did not say what was discussed in the private audiences, diplomats said it would be highly unusual if the recent events in Canada did not come up.

https://www.cbc.ca/n...tican-1.6054819
 

[Sparky]

Trigger Warning.

UNREPENTANT
WINNER Best International Documentary 2006 Los Angeles Independent Film Festival.
WINNER Best Director for an International Documentary

https://www.youtube....h?v=bMjSL2brtuA

This is quite the story. The United Church needs to pull up their socks.

[VIResident]

'Convenient ignorance:' Canadians' knowledge of residential schools sorely lacking

 

The Canadian School Boards Association has called for the development of a nationwide curriculum on residential schools and related topics from kindergarten to Grade 12

 

https://nationalpost...oefully-lacking

 

"....Widespread shock at the discovery of what are believed to be the buried remains of 215 Indigenous children has highlighted the pervasive ignorance among many Canadians of one of the most sordid, and as yet incomplete, chapters in Canada’s national story, experts and observers say."

 

“....It would start by ensuring that our K-to-12 system does a comprehensive job of telling the story of Canada, not with rose-coloured glasses, but with the reality which it deserves,” Horgan said. “I have two degrees in history from two universities and I did not know about the atrocities of residential schools from our public education system.”

 

"...“I feel very, very, very sad and very angry,” Yakeleya said. “A shaking up needs to happen in Canada that needs to be more than one paragraph.”"

 

"“There was this sense of displacement of history, that there was a need to push forward with the history that the majority felt was important,” McKee said. “We do have to acknowledge that the truth wasn’t being taught.”

 

"One foreigner who knows more than many Canadians about the residential schools is Veronika Heinl, who wrote a 40-page paper on the subject in 2018 at her high school in Germany, where the country’s role in the Second World War is widely taught. She found no shortage of reference material, ranging from The Canadian Encyclopedia and several books to media reports."

 

"“It’s a very intense topic,” Heinl said. “You could compare it to the kind of dark part of history in Germany.”"

 

"Regardless, observers said no Canadian can now ignore — through ignorance or attitude — what has been a blistering, self-evident truth to Indigenous people past and present. "

Edited by VIResident, 06 June 2021 - 11:36 AM.

[Mike K.]

The Pacheedaht and two other nations have now backed off logging a portion of old growth in Fairy Creek for two years.

The messaging is confusing, as our society is working to support FN autonomy, but then our society protests their autonomy when it doesn’t like it.

[lanforod]

The Pacheedaht and two other nations have now backed off logging a portion of old growth in Fairy Creek for two years.

The messaging is confusing, as our society is working to support FN autonomy, but then our society protests their autonomy when it doesn’t like it.

 

I guess there are certain things where we (e.g. Canadian government/society) will not accept FN autonomy. Where it doesn't fit or directly clashes with Canadian values, for example. Logging of the few remaining old growth forest is one.

[Spy Black]

There's a lot of information contained in a chapter called "Canada's Residential Schools: Missing Children and Unmarked Burials", which forms part of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission report, and covers this subject in great detail, including (as noted int he chapter title) the potential for a great many of the over 3000 children's deaths and burials to manifest themselves as unmarked graves that are physically located in areas that may not have previously been specifically identified as ground containing human remains.

 

It might assumed that many Canadian politicians, reporters, and citizens haven't read the TRC report, and are thus re-asking questions that have already been asked ... and answered.

[spanky123]

The Pacheedaht and two other nations have now backed off logging a portion of old growth in Fairy Creek for two years.

The messaging is confusing, as our society is working to support FN autonomy, but then our society protests their autonomy when it doesn’t like it.

 

Autonomy or not, the protesters would be camping out against logging. I think that the Pacheedaht simply came to the business decision that alienating a group that has traditional supported them wasn't in their best interests.

[amor de cosmos]

“....It would start by ensuring that our K-to-12 system does a comprehensive job of telling the story of Canada, not with rose-coloured glasses, but with the reality which it deserves,” Horgan said. “I have two degrees in history from two universities and I did not know about the atrocities of residential schools from our public education system.”

me too, I'd never heard of this story until the T&R commission started its work. well not the history degrees part but i managed to get through high school & university without ever hearing about them. i also remember doing lots of haikus & limericks in english class rather than learning about objects, subjects, predicates, conjunctions etc like i would have if i learned a more inflected language like sanskrit or latin. it's no excuse that english relies on word order rather than changing word endings.

Edited by amor de cosmos, 07 June 2021 - 08:45 AM.

[spanky123]

me too, I'd never heard of this story until the T&R commission started its work. well not the history degrees part but i managed to get through high school & university without ever hearing about them.

 

You guys must have taken the wrong courses. My history class in high school covered residential schools albeit from a different perspective. 

[Victoria Watcher]

anyway now that residential schools have been gone for a couple generations it’s good to see that everything has improved for on reserve natives.

[amor de cosmos]

Newfoundland: Is looking to explore making the topic of residential schools "more explicit." The most in-depth examination now occurs in social studies in Grade 7. Higher grades receive some instruction on the topic.
 
Nova Scotia: Students must learn about residential schools in Grade 8. Learners reflect on 20th and 21st century Indigenous experiences in Canada.
 
New Brunswick: Has modules for Grades 7-9 on Indigenous topics, including a "robust" one focusing on Indian day and residential schools introduced in 2019.
 
Prince Edward Island: Students from kindergarten to Grade 12 learn some of the history of residential schools. The Grade 9 social studies human rights unit explores the residential schools' legacy.

 

*snip*

 

British Columbia: Lessons specific to residential schools and its effects begin in Grade 5. Students in grades 10 and 12 learn about discriminatory policies and injustices in Canada, including residential schools, and the challenges facing Indigenous people, including the legacies of colonialism. The new curriculum was introduced in September 2016 for kindergarten to Grade 12, in 2018 for Grade 10, and in 2019 for grades 11-12.

etc
https://www.timescol...ools-1.24327391

Edited by amor de cosmos, 07 June 2021 - 09:04 AM.

[Mike K.]

I guess there are certain things where we (e.g. Canadian government/society) will not accept FN autonomy. Where it doesn't fit or directly clashes with Canadian values, for example. Logging of the few remaining old growth forest is one.

 

If there is one, there must be others. 

 

This does not bode well for decades of reconciliation efforts and the pursuit of FN autonomy.

[Rex Waverly]

You guys must have taken the wrong courses. My history class in high school covered residential schools albeit from a different perspective. 

 

Going to high school in the late 90s in Alberta, I didn't hear a thing about residential schools, didn't know they existed until way past school age.  

At the time, my dad was a high school social studies teacher, pretty sure he didn't know anything about them either.

[spanky123]

If there is one, there must be others. 

 

This does not bode well for decades of reconciliation efforts and the pursuit of FN autonomy.

 

In fairness to FN, there are probably a half dozen different governance models. Although we tend to lump all FN together for policy purposes, they are in fact hundreds of distinct bands many with different needs and desires. If you have land that has economic value and can argue the validity of treaties then you may want autonomy. If you have land that has little economic value then you probably don't.

[Victoria Watcher]

In fairness to FN, there are probably a half dozen different governance models. Although we tend to lump all FN together for policy purposes, they are in fact hundreds of distinct bands many with different needs and desires. If you have land that has economic value and can argue the validity of treaties then you may want autonomy. If you have land that has little economic value then you probably don't.

who knew having hundreds of independent authorities - with no clear senior authority - would be a bad idea?

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 07 June 2021 - 09:42 AM.

[spanky123]

Going to high school in the late 90s in Alberta, I didn't hear a thing about residential schools, didn't know they existed until way past school age.  

At the time, my dad was a high school social studies teacher, pretty sure he didn't know anything about them either.

 

So know that you know, what do you plan to do about it? How are you going to change?