45 replies to this topic

[lanforod]

I'd rather spend effort focusing on the root of the safety issue. Lighting isn't the problem.

[Nparker]

Yeah, it’s too dim.

This is true for more than just the luminosity of our region.

[Spy Black]

Not really wanting to get into a back-and-forth on the issue, but "safety" has most definitely been disassociated from the intensity of street (or any other type) of lighting.

Light is light is light ... and "how bright" it is has absolutely nothing to do with how safe you are.

 

As a society, we've been led to believe that darkness is "unsafe", and that only by trying to replicate daylight are humans going to be safe and secure ... a questionable and easily disproven belief at best, albeit one held by a large swath of the population ... folks who light up their homes and yards trying to replicate daylight, and to keep the ever lurking "danger" at bay.

 

Generally speaking, folks who gravitate to living in cities enjoy the easy lifestyle provided, and the day or night ability to see and observe everything around you brings comfort, and bright lighting abounds as a result.

But how lighting and the associated light pollution makes you "feel" doesn't translate into how safe you actually are, and the very strong case for the cultural, natural, historical and energy-saving return to darker skies remains.

[Mike K.]

Lighting is absolutely related to safety. Cracks in the sidewalk, loose objects, liquids. A lack of lighting encourages criminality, and discourages opportunism. Lighting leads to a better quality of life, it makes our social realm more equitable.

Consciously we fear the dark, we’re wired to do it. We need light to see in the dark, to survive and function. I could care less about astronomers and stars when my aging mum says the streets are too dark for her to safely walk to the grocery store.

Let’s get real here. A dark city is not friendly or safe.

[Victoria Watcher]

Yes, I don't really see how the amateur astronomer thing is all that important.

[todd]

A lack of lighting encourages criminality, and discourages opportunism.

Sometimes it just lights the way, sometimes it feels safer hiding in the dark


I like motion activated lights

Edited by todd, 25 August 2022 - 12:14 PM.

[Victoria Watcher]

Yes, I don't really see how the amateur astronomer thing is all that important.

 

It's like saying cars should be silent, to protect the highway bird-watching community.

[Ismo07]

Yeah, it’s too dim. It’s not safe.

 

Eye appointment might be needed...  I stumble home just fine most nights..  I am colour blind so my night vision is superior 

[Matt R.]

If you want dark skies, move out of the city or just go to the annual Jasper Dark Sky Festival, it's a blast.

[Ismo07]

Lighting is absolutely related to safety. Cracks in the sidewalk, loose objects, liquids. A lack of lighting encourages criminality, and discourages opportunism. Lighting leads to a better quality of life, it makes our social realm more equitable.

Consciously we fear the dark, we’re wired to do it. We need light to see in the dark, to survive and function. I could care less about astronomers and stars when my aging mum says the streets are too dark for her to safely walk to the grocery store.

Let’s get real here. A dark city is not friendly or safe.

 

Just asked our lighting guy.  95% of our LED street lights have the capability but we have never dimmed them.  I'll try another source to make sure.  I have been working on getting the lights in the parkades to be motion sensitive so they are not on all night long.  I set the Yates parkade like that years ago but the ballasts were burning out.  Now that they are all LED they are more durable for turning on and off as needed.

[Spy Black]

Lighting is absolutely related to safety. Cracks in the sidewalk, loose objects, liquids. A lack of lighting encourages criminality, and discourages opportunism. Lighting leads to a better quality of life, it makes our social realm more equitable.
Consciously we fear the dark, we’re wired to do it. We need light to see in the dark, to survive and function. I could care less about astronomers and stars when my aging mum says the streets are too dark for her to safely walk to the grocery store.
Let’s get real here. A dark city is not friendly or safe.

Nobody is saying "turn out all the lights" Mike, so representing yourself as responding to that statement is just a straw-man.

This discussion is about lighting levels, and light pollution.

 

Your comment that a lack of lighting encourages criminality once again implies (from your own head, not any comment I made) that this discussion is about "turning off all the lights".

 

I suppose if you live in a city, then the lighting levels won't bother you, and in general terms, they don't bother me either. But as noted, this isn't about turning the lights off, it's only about reducing light pollution, which is both damaging to the environment, and extremely costly in terms of energy consumption, consumption that actually accomplishes nothing.

 

Consciously, humans don't fear the dark, in fact up until the 1930's, the majority of the world outside of the major cities lived quite happily in it. Please do some research before carrying on with your argument that humans are inherently "afraid of the dark" ... we're not.

 

That you could care less about astronomers is a personal opinion you obviously hold quite dearly ... so be it.

There is so much more to the discussion, but you seem completely uninterested in following up what ALL of the effects of light pollution actually are ... again, that's just fine, but it means there's no actual discussion taking place here.

Your Mum is more important to you, and that's not only expected, it's just fine .... but again, it's got nothing to do with cleaning up light pollution, it's a discussion and threat that wasn't even under discussion ... it only existed in your head.

 

Your closing comment again implies that the discussion is about making cities "darker", when in fact the discussion was never about anything more than cleaning up wasted light shining sideways and upwards ... cleaning up light pollution.

 

If you want to have a serious discussion about light pollution (and I suspect you absolutely don't want to have one), I'd be happy to engage ... but all this talk about your "feelings", and the endless straw-man efforts to imply the discussion is about darkening cities and otherwise permanently "turning out the lights" would have to end for such a reasonable discussion to take place.

 

(BTW - I'd be happy to provide links to peer reviewed papers on each and every topic related to light pollution if you're interested, but so far in this discussion, you seem only interested in sharing your feelings with the forum).

Edited by Spy Black, 25 August 2022 - 04:08 PM.

[dasmo]

I like how this thread is so volatile and it's such a mundane subject. I'm not even sure why I came in here but I'm glad I did. Keep it up!  

[Nparker]

I like how this thread is so volatile and it's such a mundane subject...  

I am waiting for someone to shine a light on the subject. Some of the arguments have not been too bright.

[sebberry]

LED street lights suck.  They always have and they always will.   Xeon, LED and now Laser headlights on cars suck for the terrible blinding glare they cause on anything but the flattest road.  Combine the new car lights and the new street lights, it's also much harder now to differentiate between the two colour temperatures, so at a quick glance it's harder to see if a car is coming or not as all the light just blends in together.

 

Mix in our infatuation with road paint that fades two months after application and completely disappears in a light rain, and I'm sure the Johnson Street Bridge twitter account will have a lot more car vs bike crashes to rant about in the coming winter months.

[LJ]

I live in a "low light" community part of the year. The lights are round globe fixtures shining light in every direction. But they are not white bright light, more of a warm glow. They provide adequate light throughout the community, but the night sky is very visible.

[sebberry]

Here's another problem with the lights we have, combined with the ridiculous headlights in new cars.  The cooler the colour temperature, the more sensitive eyes are to light, so it takes less light output at a cooler temperature for an illuminated scene to appear the same brightness as with a warmer temperature.  When your eyes have adjusted to the cooler colour temperature, turning onto a dimly lit road might as well be like putting on a blindfold.

 

Proponents of LED street lighting often cite better colour rendition and better contrast of illuminated objects compared to the old sodium lights, but here's the thing - nobody cares about this when all you're trying to do is see.

[Mike K.]

Nobody is saying "turn out all the lights" Mike, so representing yourself as responding to that statement is just a straw-man.
This discussion is about lighting levels, and light pollution.

Your comment that a lack of lighting encourages criminality once again implies (from your own head, not any comment I made) that this discussion is about "turning off all the lights".

I suppose if you live in a city, then the lighting levels won't bother you, and in general terms, they don't bother me either. But as noted, this isn't about turning the lights off, it's only about reducing light pollution, which is both damaging to the environment, and extremely costly in terms of energy consumption, consumption that actually accomplishes nothing.

Consciously, humans don't fear the dark, in fact up until the 1930's, the majority of the world outside of the major cities lived quite happily in it. Please do some research before carrying on with your argument that humans are inherently "afraid of the dark" ... we're not.

That you could care less about astronomers is a personal opinion you obviously hold quite dearly ... so be it.
There is so much more to the discussion, but you seem completely uninterested in following up what ALL of the effects of light pollution actually are ... again, that's just fine, but it means there's no actual discussion taking place here.
Your Mum is more important to you, and that's not only expected, it's just fine .... but again, it's got nothing to do with cleaning up light pollution, it's a discussion and threat that wasn't even under discussion ... it only existed in your head.

Your closing comment again implies that the discussion is about making cities "darker", when in fact the discussion was never about anything more than cleaning up wasted light shining sideways and upwards ... cleaning up light pollution.

If you want to have a serious discussion about light pollution (and I suspect you absolutely don't want to have one), I'd be happy to engage ... but all this talk about your "feelings", and the endless straw-man efforts to imply the discussion is about darkening cities and otherwise permanently "turning out the lights" would have to end for such a reasonable discussion to take place.

(BTW - I'd be happy to provide links to peer reviewed papers on each and every topic related to light pollution if you're interested, but so far in this discussion, you seem only interested in sharing your feelings with the forum).

Holy moly…

What are you, the president of the star gazers club? The tour guide at the observatory? A Canadarm rocket scientist?

[todd]

What about all red lights to maintain our night vision?

[Mike K.]

Sorry, they maintain traffic control.

[Mike K.]

Mum was saying the lighting makes you feel like you’re living in a horror movie, always questioning what you’re seeing and if it’s a person far away, or a bush, or something else. I didn’t realize it was bad as it is until I saw it for myself.

So yeah, it’s great old codgers who don’t even live in the muni think it’s not a big deal and put amateur astronomy before pedestrian safety, but women should not be made to feel vulnerable in their own neighbourhoods by another virtue signal.