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Latenight nuisance bylaw


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#41 davek

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 01:48 PM

Second, increase enforcement of over-serving and other problems -- again with new bylaws or much higher fines. Bars aren't supposed to serve people to the point of drunkenness. If they are, then the consequences need to be serious. The city can also push the province for better enforcement.

Third, give the city's bar owners notice: Their customers are emerging drunk and causing the problems, so they should have to bear of the policing and cleanup costs. Whether through sharply increased business licence costs or some other measures, the city should shift the costs of policing on to the businesses at least partially responsible for the problem. That would create a meaningful incentive for them to invest in solutions.


This idea of punishing bar owners for the irresponsible behaviour of their customers sounds like bad business. If that principle is embraced, then restaurants and grocery stores have to bear some responsibility for the social costs of obesity. Perhaps Thrifty's should insure the fat content of my purchases doesn't exceed a fixed amount?
It would be both moral and wise to keep individuals responsible for their own choices.

#42 G-Man

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 06:08 PM

^ Word!

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#43 Caramia

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 01:22 PM

Hrmm I have to agree with that.
Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
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#44 Rob Randall

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 10:59 PM

This was discussed at today's Committee of the Whole. There will be further review with the BCLDB before it becomes a bylaw (last call 2 am, clear tables at 2:30, and 3 am bar closing.)

The bar owners' group is trying to get the Big Bus to shuttle drunks back to UVic after midnight.

I asked Sgt. Grant Hamilton of the VPD why they aren't able to ticket drunks and other troublemakers when only three tickets pays for an overtime shift. It's because most of the money from a ticket goes to the Province! We have to change this!

#45 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 11:25 PM

This was discussed at today's Committee of the Whole. There will be further review with the BCLDB before it becomes a bylaw (last call 2 am, clear tables at 2:30, and 3 am bar closing.)

The bar owners' group is trying to get the Big Bus to shuttle drunks back to UVic after midnight.

I asked Sgt. Grant Hamilton of the VPD why they aren't able to ticket drunks and other troublemakers when only three tickets pays for an overtime shift. It's because most of the money from a ticket goes to the Province! We have to change this!



I really don't think UVic students are more than 10% of this problem.
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#46 G-Man

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Posted 05 October 2007 - 06:33 AM

This so called problem is being disporpotionately overblown by the media. And again to suggest that this is caused by Uni students is crazy as there is little difference between summer and winter.

Anytime there is perceived fun in this city we clamp down on it so that it either gets ruined or cancelled - New Years, Canada Day, Folk Fest, etc...

This really goes back to a post I saw somewhere else discussing some tourists that came to Vic and were surprised that it is a city and not some sleepy village in the rainforest.

The only group I feel any pain for is the VPD as they are underfunded and overworked and they are doing the best they can.

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#47 Galvanized

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Posted 05 October 2007 - 02:07 PM

Again, you guys would be surprised at how many are post-secondary students. I think it's great that they are considering a shuttle bus to UVic because of the chronic cab shortage a 2am. If the bus does happen I give it 3 months before the owners of Big Bus pulls out due to damage to their buses (it will be too costly to replace windows like BCT has to).

Believe it or not but there are plenty of cab owners who refuse to run their cabs when the bars close due to problem people and not having drivers who want to work that shift. It's too bad because they are sorely needed.
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#48 Rorschach

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Posted 06 October 2007 - 07:13 AM

Maybe the campus bus drivers can rent the VPD paddy wagon?

#49 Rorschach

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Posted 06 October 2007 - 07:17 AM

The only group I feel any pain for is the VPD as they are underfunded and overworked and they are doing the best they can.


The Canada Supreme Court ruled yesterday that people can sue the police for negligence. Once a few of those lawsuits come down the pike just watch how many fewer people get arrested. No one wants to be a cop any more and no police agency can or should lower their integrity standards.

it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The regular people's rights have been de-prioritized and the criminal's rights magnified to primary importance.

It is likewise far more important to save the planet so that our kids 1000 years from now will have cleaner air than to deal with the problems of today. It's a matter of priorities. Our leaders prioritize looking good and feeling good rather than making any difference toward addressing real problems of real people in the real world.

Every one of these problems can be solved simply with a decision to solve them. No one is willing to make such a decision.

#50 Caramia

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 09:07 AM

There are plenty of leaders who are willing to make that decision, unfortunately they have countless armchair critics, yapping at their heels, and getting in their way.
Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900), The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891

#51 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 05:03 PM

I'm still not clear to me why late night eateries should pay for the mess created by clubs and bars that clearly overserve patrons. Why don't those places get their licenses lifted, plus a couple of hefty fines?

It's interesting how Victoria and Seattle approach the problems caused by late night rowdies (or jackasses, as the Seattle P-I reporter called them). In Victoria, we might force late night eateries to close. In Seattle, 24-hour restaurants that voluntarily close prompt calls (and newspaper articles) for increased police presence to curb the jackasses, because each time the police (as directed by city hall) cracked down on disturbances/ nuisances, it solved the problem.

From today's T-C (Wharf Street eateries may face early closings to curb rowdies by Carolyn Heiman) we learn that "The city will test drive its tougher nuisance bylaw today when it holds a hearing that could result in the early closure of the late-night eatery called the Pita Pit."

From a Jan.3/08 Seattle P-I article (Manager of last Denny's in Seattle can't stomach late-night scene by Robert L. Jamieson Jr.) we learn that there is much anguish around the late night / 24 hour eateries that do close, and there are calls to find ways to keep them open. Because, as the Denny's manager says, he "believes all-hour dining spots are a city's social hub, drawing all types of folks who know it when they smell it -- the aroma of sizzling bacon, onion-laced hash browns and burning coffee. But with diners around town folding, Spokely [businessman who runs the Sodo Denny's] senses that his niche is in trouble."

(Sodo is "South of Dome," and not the "best" area -- it's south of the "nicer" downtown area.)

The Seattle jackasses have guns, which make them much worse than the Victoria drunks. But they both manage to kill off downtown vibrancy, that's for sure (unless you consider mayhem "vibrant"). From the article:

Watch liquored-up young people in tricked-out cars fight in the parking lot, and cuss or loiter and leave gang graffiti inside. Hear the crash of glass as bullets blast through the windows. Listen to employees talk about dropping to the floor when people outside make threatening gestures.

Such incidents -- within the last several years -- weighed on Spokely, the 52-year-old general manager of the Denny's. A few months ago, after weekend rowdiness kicked up, the franchise owner, with manager input, decided to close during the hours that drew the most trouble, from late Saturday to early Sunday.

"We stay open 24 hours because we want to take care of people," sighed Spokely, a warm man who used to run a Midwestern truck stop. "It's usually a pleasant family dining experience."

Denny's hired off-duty Seattle police officers to help, but they're pricey; it costs about $320 for two officers over a four-hour late shift. Spokely says he has a budget only for officers to work late Friday into Saturday.

When hired guns are around, the unruly throng -- commonly believed to be spillover from area clubs -- behaves or doesn't show. When officers aren't in sight, the scene can be a combustible mix of booze, machismo and tempers.

Denny's workers say they have no beef with police response. When they call 911, officers arrive quickly. They just wonder why there's not a more steady, visible presence during Sodo's wee hours.


Fair question. Heightened police visibility keeps ruffians at bay near Pike and Pine. And police presence also keeps weekend revelers in check at Dick's burger joints until 2 a.m.
http://seattlepi.nws...9_robert03.html

So even though Seattle has real problems, folks there also seem to understand that the only way to quell disturbance is to get enforcement (which already exists in the "nice" downtown parts) -- cops on the street, walking the beat, showing presence.

And the jackasses aren't even the kids you'd label as "bad" -- sometimes they're spoiled brats who just don't care:

"This is a Denny's," Spokely said, shaking his head at society's lack of manners. He recalled students from one Seattle public high school last year walking out on $200 worth of food during homecoming. He can't get the principal to return his calls.

As we spoke early on a recent Sunday, he glanced at tables of punk rockers. In spite of the 5:30 a.m. hour, they were chatty and energetic, not to mention courteous.


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#52 G-Man

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 07:32 AM

I think that this owner has a good case for taking the city to court if they change his license based on activity off of his personal property. THere was an interview with a police officer and you smell how close to the thin edge this was in the way she was saying that they do get calls there but they are outside.

I mean as I have said before you can't sue the House of Knives becasue that is where you buy a murder weapon and you can't sue Ensign Chrysler if you mow down 10 people with your Caravan. If it happens off your property it is out of your hands.

#53 Caramia

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 10:08 AM

I like the fact that the Denny's owner differentiated between the spoiled yahoos who ruin things for everyone, and the more urban punk rock kids. I recall feeling bitter about situations where my friends and I had been completely civil, yet trouble downtown had been blamed on those "punks," when in fact it was kids from Saanich or the suburbs who had come downtown in their fancy cars to act out away from mommy and daddy's reach. Honestly, I do believe that if drunken rowdiness carried stiffer penalties and could get a person in trouble with their school or parents, we'd see it drop off considerably.

#54 Baro

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 11:10 AM

Late at night downtown it's never the homeless or 'punk' type that hassle you, it's the drunken frat types and spoiled suburban teens, or at least that's always been my experience.

I remember jane jacobs essentially saying as much. People that are downtown all the time and view it as an extension of their homes have to deal with the social consequences of their actions and have learned how to survive and get along in their area. It's the spoiled kids coming in from the burbs to just get drunk and go nuts that have a 'tourist' mentality, that they have nothing to lose and don't care what the people downtown think of them since it's not their turf, they don't give a **** to litter, be noisy, piss all over the place, and hassle people. It's all a joke to them.

Ha, maybe with more downtown residents these 'trouble' places will have a sufficient critical mass of people who view the area as their home to socially police the trouble makers.

#55 Galvanized

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 11:28 AM

I'm not out when the bars close these days but if there is a large enough crowd for the Pita Pit do they not have someone at the door controlling the crowd? By that I mean someone making sure the number of occupants inside do not exceed the fire code and making sure the people who are waiting in line to get in are somewhat orderly.

I can't see how you should be responsible for what a patron does after they leave your business (unless you over served them alcohol) but as a business owner you need to take some responsibility over the ones waiting to get into your establishment.

#56 Baro

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 01:04 PM

Yeah but if these places wern't open the crowds wouldn't have a place to be! We need to shut them down and fine them. We also need to find out where these people work because if they don't have jobs they can't afford to go downtown late at night drinking, their employers are giving them the money to fuel their behaviors and need to be held responsible. I also think that who ever built their homes should be held responsible for providing shelter and allowing these people to live in the city.

#57 Coreyburger

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 02:30 PM

Given yet another late night bus service just fell through TC story, the issue of late night food gets more important. Getting those bar hoppers fed means they are going to be quieter and doing something, given they are not going to be getting out of downtown anytime soon.

#58 Phil McAvity

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 02:39 PM

I agree with the city on this one.

Have we completely lost all sense of civility that we actually allow people to eat pitas late at night? It's a sad day. As a city we need to put an end to the atrocities of condiments occasionally ending up on the street. Sometimes it's even worse than that. Every so often bits of meat, pita and vegetables can be found near the pita pit. Everyone should be at home knitting, sewing and reading. The police should never have to do anything either.

#59 jklymak

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 03:15 PM

The police should never have to do anything either.


They have their own all-night establishments to protect...



(Sorry couldn't resist. Police are hard working, do a dangerous job, etc etc).

#60 Mike K.

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 04:29 PM

I remember jane jacobs essentially saying as much. People that are downtown all the time and view it as an extension of their homes have to deal with the social consequences of their actions and have learned how to survive and get along in their area. It's the spoiled kids coming in from the burbs to just get drunk and go nuts that have a 'tourist' mentality, that they have nothing to lose and don't care what the people downtown think of them since it's not their turf, they don't give a **** to litter, be noisy, piss all over the place, and hassle people. It's all a joke to them.


Well said.

Perhaps one of the solutions to our policing crisis in the core is to have the cops from a rowdy individuals' municipality pick them up if they need to be arrested or fined. Once Saanich cops receive 30 calls a night to pick up their drunken residents and deal with the accompanying paperwork they'd begin to soften up on the issue of lending Victoria their excess fuzz on Friday/Saturday evenings (given that the hear no evil, see no evil mentality is obviously the attitude among Victoria's police departments).

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