Jump to content

      












Photo

Belleville Terminal Concept | Proposed


  • Please log in to reply
251 replies to this topic

#1 Rob Randall

Rob Randall

    BIG TEXAS FORUMER

  • Member
  • 16,074 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 04:39 PM

I attended the unveiling of the report from the Belleville Terminal Task Force. The report calls for a dramatic revitalization to the existing facilities, including a new terminal, docking facilities and a possible "landmark" hotel to pay for it on the western edge of the property.

The plan also says the Coho ferry has to go, as a new terminal would be too expensive and security rules would make for a facility too big for the site. There was also concern over whether continuing to bring car and truck traffic into Downtown is a sustainable practice, given that passenger forecasts are rising and traffic is near capacity. Finding a new home for the Coho was not part of the task force's mandate although some locations have already been mentioned, including Esquimalt, Sidney and the Esso tank farm. Ogden Point is possible but cruise ships already use it often and the climate makes docking difficult.

“I mean I just don’t understand the big Texas part, like maybe he’s from Texas? I want to know the back story.”


#2 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 63,938 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 04:44 PM

What is it now, three years after plans got underway to redevelop the terminal and the only decisions (heck, the only ideas!) thus far suggest a "landmark" hotel and moving the coho? Good work, panel.

Furthermore, what sort of landmark hotel will be financially viable at the ridiculous density and height restrictions the City and the James Bay Neighbourhood Association will inevitably impose?

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#3 Holden West

Holden West

    Va va voom!

  • Member
  • 9,058 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 04:52 PM

Times Colonist

$100 million dollar facelift set for Inner Harbour

Terry Farmer, task force chairman, said Partnerships B.C. is now studying the recommendations to see if they are economically feasible and the province can seek requests for proposals.

Farmer said the province has said there will be no further grants or money coming for an redevelopment.


If that's the case, those trailer shacks won't be going anytime soon. Too bad.
"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

#4 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 17,175 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 05:01 PM

The Coho, which requires large harbour front parking lots to operate, consumes a large part of a small site and compromises public use and public access, said the report, called The Vision for Bellville.


Moving the Coho is a mistake, methinks. Victorians don't get it; tourists are coming here to see the ocean, to see ships and boats. It's commonplace stuff to us but it's the highlight of many a tourist's experience, hence why they constantly mention the Coho, the floatplanes, and the harbour ferries in their reviews.

Are we saying there's absolutely no way the Coho's lots could be hidden beneath a fancy hotel and public boardwalk? The Government Street causeway/Empress Hotel represents some seriously innovative thinking. These days everybody seems to have cold feet.



#5 G-Man

G-Man

    Senior Case Officer

  • Moderator
  • 13,259 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 05:09 PM

That is crap! I thought Blackball was one of the big people behind this plan?

Visit my blog at: https://www.sidewalkingvictoria.com 

 

It has a whole new look!

 


#6 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 17,175 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 05:15 PM

It just wouldn't be the same inner harbour without a decently sized ship coming and going. No more images like these? Ever?





#7 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 17,175 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 05:25 PM

There was also concern over whether continuing to bring car and truck traffic into Downtown is a sustainable practice, given that passenger forecasts are rising and traffic is near capacity.


Come again? Is the Coho getting bigger or something? Isn't it carrying the same number of vehicles that it ever was?

#8 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 63,938 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 05:29 PM

I hate to say it, but I'm confident it'll be a while before we're faced with finding new digs for the coho. I can't see this plan coming to fruition in time for 2010 and once the Olympics are over the push to develop this terminal will further recede.

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#9 Ms. B. Havin

Ms. B. Havin
  • Member
  • 5,052 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 06:51 PM

I agree that it would be a HUGE mistake to move the Coho out of there. As aastra said, people want that hustle-bustle, and part of the joy of having a harbour is that it does what harbours do. Work.

God, turn the Inner Harbour into a graveyard, why don't you... maybe with ittybitty miniature ships (perhaps a water version of the Langford trolleys?). How dumb can you get...
When you buy a game, you buy the rules. Play happens in the space between the rules.

#10 zoomer

zoomer
  • Member
  • 2,009 posts
  • LocationVictoria - Downtown

Posted 13 August 2007 - 06:57 PM

1. $100 million is peanuts nowadays, and they want to redevelopment of Belleville Street, restore the CP Terminal Building and build a landmark hotel!? Heck I don't think 100 million would even get you a landmark hotel, unless it's a rather modest landmark hotel or a nice non-landmark hotel! Just how big is 28,000 square metres anyways?

2. Yes, it's totally cool and great optics to have the Coho enter the Inner Harbour, I love it too; however, I think I would rather have Belleville redeveloped into a "grand boulevard" and more importantly lose the waterfront parking lots and open up some public access.

3. Well, I get tired of ranting about this, but we'll really need to wait until there is a non-Vancouver premier before Victoria will get any money for it's waterfront, while Vancouver continues to get whatever it's heart desires (yes, including a lot of federal funds as well).

4. Yes, this is likely another delay tactic to get us past 2010, and the next election...

#11 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 17,175 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 07:03 PM

I don't understand why the Coho vehicle loading area couldn't be integrated into the base of the hotel along with the hotel's parking garage.

The 14-person group was given a mandate to develop a vision that could be self-supporting and delivered using a private/public partnership.

I also don't understand the financials. Has somebody already put up the $100 million or not? If not, then how the heck did they arrive at that number? It takes no imagination at all to envision hundreds of millions of dollars worth of development on that site. And that's assuming highrises would be out of the question.

#12 Rorschach

Rorschach

    Truth is my bitch!

  • Member
  • 758 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 07:18 PM

I love the Coho. I think it's pretty majestic. Built in 1959 and never missed a sailing due to weather. Quite an amazing record. Where are they going to put the landmark hotel when there are already hotels - big ones - on the south side of Bellville Street already? Right on the dock? Astra's idea of integrating the hotel and the Coho entrance sounds good. I think a "new" old-style harbor terminal would work. If there could just be some design that looks like it belongs in Victorian England, yet invisibly modern behind the walls. The tourists would love it and the locals would accept it as a "landmark" in no time.

A redevelopment of that area is needed, but it's got to be an improvement - an enhancement. I think the Coho holds only 100 cars and can hold 1000 passengers. Hotels and shops and moving the Coho... that's not the way to go. What about the Victoira Clipper docks? Are those to be wiped out too?

I somehow doubt this was a panel of "true Victorians" as they claim. If they are, they are not very creative. Probably the same person who wrote a letter to the T/C complaining about the sexy waitresses at Earl's. Is that person a "true Victorian"? I'm dismissing the "concept" as the product of some old coots who don't have a clue.

#13 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 17,175 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 07:21 PM

I think by "landmark" they probably mean "4-story stucco box."

#14 Ms. B. Havin

Ms. B. Havin
  • Member
  • 5,052 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 07:40 PM

Who are the <kof> innovative brainboxes on this task force, anyway? Heiman's article doesn't name them -- surely they're not anonymous? Who are they, and why were they appointed to this task force in the first place? Who appointed them?
When you buy a game, you buy the rules. Play happens in the space between the rules.

#15 Ms. B. Havin

Ms. B. Havin
  • Member
  • 5,052 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 07:48 PM

How come [url=http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=203e1bea-1933-4c31-90ee-d84709f2ffee&k=53545:f764f]this article[/url:f764f] from Aug.8/07 says it's a 12-person task force, while today's article says it's a 14-person group? Can anyone tell me who is (and how many are) actually on this Lowe-Hagen appointed team, other than that it's headed up by Terry Farmer of Accent Inns?
When you buy a game, you buy the rules. Play happens in the space between the rules.

#16 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 17,175 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 08:03 PM

Is there any way the Coho could dock north of the Johnson Street Bridge? Could it make it through there?

#17 Ms. B. Havin

Ms. B. Havin
  • Member
  • 5,052 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 08:08 PM

I find this (relatively old item) troubling: the [url=http://qp.gov.bc.ca/hansard/38th3rd/D70514y.htm:8bc50]transcript from a May 14 2007 Legislative session[/url:8bc50]...

It's long, and I'm taxing you with a long excerpt, but note the bolded bits...

The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); D. Hayer in the chair. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

The committee met at 2:31 p.m. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

On Vote 41: ministry operations, $126,298,000 (continued). [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

R. Fleming: I want to ask some questions this afternoon about the Belleville ferry terminal, located very, very near to these buildings — the status of that project. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It has been six years, really, since government has done anything significant with that site or with that project. I think it's very important that if we are to fulfil this government's goals of doubling tourism revenues by 2015, it's important to recognize how much time we have wasted already in building up what is an incredibly valued gateway, if you will, to the capital region and to the tourism and transportation interests of this part of the province. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
There are four ferry terminal operators there now. Some of them have threatened at various times in the last few years to cease operating or to move. They've looked at other sites because the government has been appallingly slow to act. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The minister will know that in 2001 the last sort of significant flurry of activity around that site was when the property was successfully rezoned through the municipality of Victoria, shortly following the site consolidation and the ownership questions between federal, municipal and provincial governments. Significant federal properties were divested to the province. The lead agency to take forward that project was and is, I presume, the Provincial Capital Commission. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Maybe I could start there and ask the minister if the lead agency for the redevelopment of that terminal project is still the Provincial Capital Commission. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Hon. S. Hagen: First of all, I want to say that I'm really pleased to hear the positiveness expressed with regard to this project. It hasn't just been six years. When I was in government in the '80s, there was a lot of talk about Belleville Street. I think it's been a topic of conversation around Victoria for at least 25 years. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Certainly the Capital Commission is one of the important partners in this. As you know, nothing can happen on that site without the city of Victoria and without involving the neighbourhood, the business community and the tourism sector. That's what we're doing now, and I'm hoping that we can make some progress. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

R. Fleming: The minister will know that there are no constraints in terms of the municipality's permission to proceed in terms of a rezoning. That's all been taken care of, and the government inherited that situation. All that heavy lifting around consolidating properties, consulting with James Bay and with the city of Victoria, and doing a comprehensive redevelopment was done. It was shelf-ready for this government to then fund and proceed with the project, and nothing has happened there. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'm wondering if the minister could update this committee as to whether the province, through the PCC or another vehicle, intends to seek a new rezoning on that property. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

[1435]

Hon. S. Hagen: The mayor is the one who structured the blue-ribbon committee. The mayor must obviously have some questions about the zoning on the property, or he wouldn't have structured a blue-ribbon panel. (Edit: could our mayor perhaps let the other citizens of Victoria -- beyond JB's borders -- know what his "concerns" with zoning are?) The blue-ribbon panel, as the member knows, is a cross-section of the community — people who have various interests in that property, including the local residents. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'm looking forward to the report that comes back to the mayor, and then to me, from the work that they've been doing. I look forward to receiving that, and then we'll see what the next steps are. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

R. Fleming: I won't ask the minister to prejudge the report, but certainly there must have been some guidelines, the terms of reference, that he agreed to in consultation with those people that are now working hard to achieve a workable plan for this project. I wonder if the minister has talked about what sort of finances might be expected from the province. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
As the minister is no doubt aware, transportation ferry terminals are not often moneymakers. They need some assistance in the capital phase. That's the same with airports and other kinds of terminuses of this sort, and government needs to take a lead for that very reason. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I wonder if the minister could tell me whether there was a commitment, an in-the-range figure, if you will, that this mayor's blue-ribbon panel could expect to work with and base their recommendations back to him around. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

Hon. S. Hagen: We were looking for the mayor's terms of reference, and we haven't found them yet. (Edit: WHAT????) This is basically what the mayor has asked the blue-ribbon task force to do: to develop a new vision for the redevelopment of the Belleville terminal site — including the recommended mix of uses, services and amenities — and a plan and approach to enable the vibrant, financially feasible, market-driven project to be successfully completed. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The blue-ribbon panel is chaired by Terry Farmer with other members, including representatives from the Greater Victoria Harbour Authority, Provincial Capital Commission, development community, small business, Tourism Victoria, the neighbourhood association and marine stakeholders. Provincial and city of Victoria staff provide a resource to the committee. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Redevelopment of the terminal site has been envisioned as the province's contribution being a long-term lease on the land and as the city's contribution being zoning. Local government's support is critical to the success of this project, given that zoning decisions are made at the local level, and that it is likely that the upland development will also help pay for terminal redevelopment. All that the province has put on the table is the land. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]

R. Fleming: From the outset there has been no capital contribution committed at all? In other words, this committee, which I think has existed in one form or another for the past six years, frankly…. There have been various task forces and organizations, the Harbour Authority and others, working collectively and sometimes independently of one another, looking for a way to get this project moving. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It has always been for the lack of a contribution, which they can then match federally or provincially or create a revenue stream, a ticket tax or anything that you could go to the bank with and borrow money to accomplish this project…. That has always been the major stumbling block. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Am I to hear the minister correctly in saying that all that the province has brought to this table is a commitment for a long-term lease for the property that they already own, and that there are no actual capital dollars for the comprehensive redevelopment of this facility? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]


And so on...
When you buy a game, you buy the rules. Play happens in the space between the rules.

#18 Rob Randall

Rob Randall

    BIG TEXAS FORUMER

  • Member
  • 16,074 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 08:32 PM

I'll try to answer as many questions as possible but keep in mind I was not a member of the panel (the DRA was not consulted on this) and the DRA has not reviewed this so my opinions are not necessarily those of etc. etc. disclaimer... :) I'm just a guy that was present at the advance background briefing this morning and the Committee of the Whole meeting in the afternoon so I've heard a lot of the questions and answers raised.

Task Force:

Terry Farmer of Farmer Construction (Chair)
developer Mohni Jawl
Irish Times Pub owner Matt MacNeil
Devon Properties president Rob Hunter.
WCG international vice-president Robin Adair
Victoria Clipper president Darrell Bryan
CitySpaces consultant Deane Strongitharm
Starr McMichael, president of Starboard Enterprises
consultant Eric Donald
Budget Rent-A-Car owner Judy Scott
Greater Victoria Harbour Authority chair Don Prittie
Tim Van Alstine, president, James Bay Neighbourhood Environment Association
Plus the chiefs of the Esquimalt and Songhees First Nations

Other people made appearances, including

Architects Paul Merrick, Sid Chow and Franc D'Ambrosio
Reps from all the transportation entities including BC Ferries
US Homeland Security
Transport Canada and the Border Services Agency

“I mean I just don’t understand the big Texas part, like maybe he’s from Texas? I want to know the back story.”


#19 zoomer

zoomer
  • Member
  • 2,009 posts
  • LocationVictoria - Downtown

Posted 13 August 2007 - 08:38 PM

I don't understand why the Coho vehicle loading area couldn't be integrated into the base of the hotel along with the hotel's parking garage.


Aastra, I would imagine that there would be significant logistical and security concerns with this idea, but perhaps more importantly it would be very expensive compared to a simple parking lot elsewhere in the city. I'd like to see if there are other examples elsewhere of this idea working, perhaps we could learn a thing or two from them.

#20 Ms. B. Havin

Ms. B. Havin
  • Member
  • 5,052 posts

Posted 13 August 2007 - 09:03 PM

^ Do you think, zoomer? Given that the current parking is significantly below grade/ street level, would it really be impossible to find (& fund) a plan that would keep the parking there, with walkway/ decking / hotel at grade?
When you buy a game, you buy the rules. Play happens in the space between the rules.

You're not quite at the end of this discussion topic!

Use the page links at the lower-left to go to the next page to read additional posts.
 



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users