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Belleville Terminal Concept | Proposed


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#21 G-Man

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 09:03 PM

This project is not financially feasible unless they are yet again going to build a cheap ass version of a terminal. I mean 30 million three years ago got us the arena. 100 million now will get crap all. Also why build the freaking terminal if it is only going to be used by the clipper? I mean what is the freakin point. It goes what twice a day in the winter? This is the worst idea ever to come out of the tiny brained genius that think they speak for the rest of us. I mean if it is just the clipper than why don't we just let them keep their trailer and we can kick the coho out and turn the whole thing into a park. TO do it right they would have to spend at 200 million dollars at the very least. What a freakn joke!

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#22 Rob Randall

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 09:07 PM

Please note:

These sketches are just concept drawings to illustrate the possibilities that could occur on the site. They do not represent any existing proposal.

It is up to the development community to initiate a detailed proposal of their own.

Overview: note the new Hilton hotel on Belleville and its north/south orientation (vs. the east/west of the current motel)



Harbour view. Note the hotel at the extreme west side of the site (approx 12 storeys)



Belleville looking west. Note the CP building at right. The Wax Museum would be relocated in the new commercial building near the new terminal:



Belleville looking east:



Harbour side plaza. The lower walkway is for screened passengers, separated from the public by some sort of glass wall:


“I mean I just don’t understand the big Texas part, like maybe he’s from Texas? I want to know the back story.”


#23 Rob Randall

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 09:16 PM

Apparently there are two significant restraints with this project, financial and security. The task force felt that constructing adequate facilities that would meet the demands of US Homeland Security were not financially realistic and would wall off the view of the harbour from Belleville due the the much larger volume of space required.

“I mean I just don’t understand the big Texas part, like maybe he’s from Texas? I want to know the back story.”


#24 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 10:06 PM

$100-million facelift set for Inner Harbour
Plan to redevelop Belleville Street side calls for landmark hotel, new terminal, but Coho ferry needs to move
Carolyn Heiman, Times Colonist
Published: Monday, August 13, 2007

The realization that a redeveloped Belleville Street harbourfront could not accommodate the Black Ball Transport service was one of the most challenging for the committee, said task force member Mohan Jawl. The Coho, which requires large harbour front parking lots to operate, consumes a large part of a small site and compromises public use and public access, said the report, called The Vision for Bellville.

Jawl said it was not within the task force's mandate to look at relocation options for the aging Coho. Over the years, however, the topic of moving the car service has been come up and relocation options have included Esquimalt and the Anacortes ferry terminal in Sidney.

Lowe formed the task force last March with the blessing of the province, which owns the seven-acre site. The 14-person group was given a mandate to develop a vision that could be self-supporting and delivered using a private/public partnership.

[...]
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#25 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 07:19 AM

Apparently there are two significant restraints with this project, financial and security. The task force felt that constructing adequate facilities that would meet the demands of US Homeland Security were not financially realistic and would wall off the view of the harbour from Belleville due the the much larger volume of space required.

I think Canadians let themselves off the hook too often by blaming the Americans (re. Homeland Security). Offer Coho what you (i.e., we) think is what the Inner Harbour needs, and they can deal with Homeland Security issues at their end (how about in Port Angeles?). Everything is negotiable. Administrations come and go. Rules change.

As for the design: I realize it's a total "concept" thing, will probably never get built, etc., but right now it strikes me as though Saanich's Town & Country Mall concept has more of a "destination" flavour than this.

The harbour should have something that signals "destination" and also "transformation": people are either arriving or leaving, or they're watching people do so. That's transformative. This wide open vanilla plaza gives no sense of that. The hotel (irony of ironies: the place where you check in to go to bed) has more signalling power than the other new structures put together. Compare the dense verticality of the old terminal (current Wax Museum) with the low-slung strung-out new buildings ("Congratulations, you've just arrived at the mall. Don't you feel transformed now?")...

As for the walkway (glassed-off/ separated from "the public"), I think that's just an abomination. The task force is worried that a Coho terminal would cut off Victorians from the harbour? Well, this idiotic look-but-don't-touch separation is just as bad. My Inner Harbour is not TV. I don't want simply to look at it. Mass the points of entry, make them dense and compact. Don't string them out like this, forcing us into viewers-only of a panorama which we can't enter into.
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#26 Rorschach

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 07:36 AM

If you just take out the hotel, it's not too bad looking. The hotel extends into where the pier is now. Are they going to sink a concrete foundation into the water? I'm all for re-developing the street itself and making it a walkway. That looks nice. What if all of the customs and homeland security stuff was in Port Angeles? All the checks could be on that end of the route. Today, you have to go through US customs in Victoira and again in Port Angeles. Yet in Port Angeles, there is no incoming customs and the inspection is only on the Victoria end. So, I don't care if homeland security vacates Victoria's Inner Harbor because they are not needed here. The customs building in Port Angeles is a trailer. It's 100 vehicles - less if there are a lot of campers, motorhomes, and tractor-trailers -- as there usually are. This is not logistically difficult.

The Coho is a smooth operation that has run well and on-time for as long as I can remember and there is no need to screw with it. It's awesome to see that huge ship navigate the harbor so effortlessly. Losing that will take away from Victoia's identity substantially. If I were planning re-development, I'd design around accomodating the Coho and generally beautifying the area for a walking area as shown above. Just take out the 12-story hotel and optimize the rest. How much more optimization does the Coho need? The darn thing runs like a clock. Other than some shabby temporaty buildings, what's the problem? How fancy does it have to be to work? Re-do the buildings in modernized Victorian style and everyone will be happy. Where is [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountainhead:1ea17]Howard Roark[/url:1ea17] to take care of this?

#27 Central Canadian

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 08:06 AM

It would be a huge mistake to not make provisions for the Coho ferry. What people have to remember is that the Inner Harbour is not only Victoria's living room but that it is a working harbour and it is the very fact that it is a working harbour that makes it interesting and such a destination. I live in Toronto now but come "home" every year, with my young family. Our first destination is always the Inner Harbour. We love watching the Coho make its way through the harbour. Build a beautiful and architecturally bold ferry terminal.

Leaving out the Coho but building a hotel will make the Inner Harbour nothing more than a gigantic marina lined with hotels. You don't need that and as tourists, we won't come. Build hotels elsewhere.

As for the old CPR Steamship terminal, yes go ahead and restore it but don't fill it up with cafes. Why not invite the Maritime Museum of BC as the lead tenant.

#28 Mike K.

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 08:10 AM

Welcome to the forum, Central.

I agree that the coho must stay but I'm not sure that if it were removed and more hotels were added, to what's already along the harbour, tourists would stop coming.

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#29 Rob Randall

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 09:03 AM

There are probably a lot of attractions that could go in the old Wax Museum (CP building) but I think the task force wanted a use that would allow the lower windows to be opened up again (they are boarded up now). That's one reason they would like to see a restaurant there. Also there would be outdoor seating on the south side.
==============================
I just received this news release:


For Immediate Release


August 14, 2007

Vancouver Island international transportation Hub abandoned by B.C. Liberals


VICTORIA–New Democrat MLA Rob Fleming is expressing shock that the provincial government refuses to contribute capital funding to the long-awaited redevelopment proposal for the Belleville International Ferry Terminal only weeks after announcing a provincial surplus of $4.1 billion dollars.

“The leadership vacuum from Tourism Minister Stan Hagen on this file is staggering. On the one hand he has no problem finding $400 million for ballooning cost overruns for the Vancouver Convention Centre, but he won’t champion any funds for a vital commercial transportation link to Vancouver Island and support a critical tourism infrastructure asset,” said Fleming, the MLA for Victoria Hillside.

The B.C. Liberals have failed to make funding commitments for the Belleville Terminal since they took power in 2001, even though the province took ownership of the terminal in 2000. The outdated terminal site was comprehensively re-zoned for development seven years ago.

"Since being elected, the B.C. Liberals have done nothing on this project and they still won't take a lead to redevelop land and port infrastructure that the province owns and manages," said Fleming. “By insisting that the Terms of Reference for the City's Belleville Terminal Task Force exclude any provincial funding dollars, Minister Hagen skewed the Task Force's work so that it changed from a major transportation terminus to a luxury hotel with an ancillary, diminished port facility.”

Victoria’s status as one of B.C.’s major travel destinations is maintained by ferry services to the island at Belleville Terminal and other ports of entry for U.S. and international visitors.

"The B.C. Liberals are spending in excess of $3 billion on Vancouver's 'Gateway' transportation project and have pledged tens of millions of dollars for ports in Prince Rupert and Campbell River - but they won't grant Victoria any funds for its downtown port. It’s disgraceful," said Fleming.

“The B.C. Liberals say they want to double tourism by 2015, but in practice they have failed to provide leadership to redevelop this major gateway to the island to bring more visitors and grow tourism revenues each year. The Victoria tourism industry is preparing for the unknown effects of stricter U.S. passport rules, which is why the province should be making it easier to get here instead of continually undermining key tourism infrastructure projects like Belleville,” said Fleming.

-- 30 --

“I mean I just don’t understand the big Texas part, like maybe he’s from Texas? I want to know the back story.”


#30 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 09:20 AM

“By insisting that the Terms of Reference for the City's Belleville Terminal Task Force exclude any provincial funding dollars, Minister Hagen skewed the Task Force's work so that it changed from a major transportation terminus to a luxury hotel with an ancillary, diminished port facility.”
(...)
“The B.C. Liberals say they want to double tourism by 2015, but in practice they have failed to provide leadership to redevelop this major gateway to the island to bring more visitors and grow tourism revenues each year. The Victoria tourism industry is preparing for the unknown effects of stricter U.S. passport rules, which is why the province should be making it easier to get here instead of continually undermining key tourism infrastructure projects like Belleville,” said Fleming.


I think we should all be writing letters of protest to Stan Hagen.

It's incredible to think that Vancouver is getting so much money for 2010 and for the Gateway project, while we're supposed to wait around for ...what, exactly? A change from a "major transportation terminus to a luxury hotel with an ancillary, diminished port facility"...
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#31 aastra

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 10:27 AM

Compare the dense verticality of the old terminal (current Wax Museum) with the low-slung strung-out new buildings ("Congratulations, you've just arrived at the mall. Don't you feel transformed now?")...


This was my reaction also. The only thing in those drawings that might work is the hotel. Everything else is dead wrong. It looks like Mattick's Farm. Mattick's Farm is great at Mattick's Farm, but it has no relevance on the inner harbour. Where's the drama?

I think a good litmus test is, would anybody bother to take a picture of it? Would anybody bother to take a picture of this?



#32 aastra

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 10:32 AM

What's the precedent for such a gaping (car-oriented) open space like this?



It seems like the powers that be are trying to decongest the causeway. Big mistake. I mean, just look at all this open space. What would be the draw? Would the rules re: buskers and vendors be relaxed to try to fill in this space?



#33 Holden West

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 10:45 AM

TOURISM MINISTER DENIES KNOWLEDGE OF HARBOUR REPORT CONTENTS

Aug 14, 2007
C-FAX News

THE MINISTER OF TOURISM SAYS HE HAS NOT READ A TASK FORCE REPORT ON THE FUTURE OF THE BELLEVILLE TERMINAL SITE ON VICTORIA'S INNER HARBOUR.

THE PROVINCE HAS ALREADY COME UNDER FIRE FROM OPPOSITION M-L-A'S AND OTHERS FOR REFUSING FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO UPGRADE THE TRANSPORTATION LINK.

IN A PREPARED STATEMENT, MINISTER STAN HAGEN THANKS THE TASK FORCE MEMBERS FOR THE WORK THEY HAVE DONE, AND SAYS (QUOTE) "WHEN THE REPORT IS RECEIVED MY STAFF WILL REVIEW IT AND MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS TO ME".

THE REPORT, WHICH WAS PRESENTED TO CITY COUNCIL YESTERDAY, ADVOCATED A RE-DEVELOPMENT THAT WOULD NOT PROVIDE TERMINAL SPACE FOR THE COHO CAR FERRY.

THE TASK FORCE HAD BEEN GIVEN A MANDATE TO STUDY OPTIONS FOR THE SITE THAT WOULD NOT REQUIRE A PROVINCIAL SUBSIDY.

- fms
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#34 G-Man

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 10:59 AM

Anyone know the email for Black Ball Transport I want to send them a letter of support telling them that I for one support the Coho and its presence in the inner harbour. It is not on their website...

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#35 aastra

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 11:01 AM

The Tsawwassen ferry terminal's mini-mall meets Victoria's inner harbour. What ambitious thinking!



#36 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 11:02 AM

THE TASK FORCE HAD BEEN GIVEN A MANDATE TO STUDY OPTIONS FOR THE SITE THAT WOULD NOT REQUIRE A PROVINCIAL SUBSIDY.


In other words, The task force was expected to run on empty, and came up with something that befits the mandate.

Re. G-Man: good idea -- I'll look around for an address, too. Someone post it, if you have it.

@ aastra: Yes, typical for the new Victorians -- ambitious thinking. Not.
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#37 Holden West

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 11:06 AM

World class? Hardly.

I'm really getting sick of that phrase being thrown around and slapped on every lowest-bidder shack.
"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
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#38 Galvanized

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 02:53 PM

They talking about this on CFAX right now and it sounds like a cruel joke.

Edit: Here is the latest CFAX poll.

What do you think of a "vision" for the inner harbour that does not include a car ferry terminal?
Answer Votes %
Completely appropriate. We should not be bending over backwards to accomodate cars and trucks any more 36 11%
It's an unspeakably lousy way to treat a company that has been serving this community well for decades 290 89%
Total: 326 100%
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#39 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 03:09 PM

^ Re. CFAX poll: Good -- at least it shows that not every Victorian is asleep at the wheel, so to speak.

I think it's time for a petition to the BC Government to let the Ministry of Tourism know that we the citizens of British Columbia want this as a fully developed "major transportation terminus," and that we want it right in the heart of the city's Inner Harbour. Not in Sidney, not in Esquimalt, but downtown, in our working port. This is a provincial matter, and it strikes me as nonsense to leave it just to the city and whatever P3 interests it's supposed to scrape together. Invariably, those players are going to do what's good for them (who wouldn't?), but this is a matter of provincial prestige, too.

It's not good enough to treat Victoria as though a "diminished port facility" could ever be adequate to the capital city's needs.
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#40 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 04:33 PM

Question: Right now, if you buy a package and show up, I assume you can have pre-booked your rental car and have it (or a shuttle) at the Coho/Star/Express/Clipper dock.

But is their a rental outlet or two at the arrivals area? Somehow it strikes me there is, but I forget.
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