160 replies to this topic

[amor de cosmos]

with record cruiseship traffic expected this year (in the ogden pt thread) maybe there will be enough people down there to fill it up, building to building!

[aastra]

More info about 8th Avenue in Calgary, please.

[Caramia]

As far as vibrancy is concerned: It ain't broke... don't fix it.

[Rob Randall]

Here is the DVBA statement:

DVBA Bulletin: A Response to Suggested Government Street Closure

A group called the Citizens for the Government Street Pedestrian Mall reportedly wants to close Government Street, from Humboldt to Yates, to create “a vibrant downtown core that fosters arts and entertainment”. From news reports, the group wants to have the street closed throughout the year, but as a minimum, to have it closed during the “tourist-heavy months of May to September”.

In 2007, the DVBA conducted a survey amongst the business and property owners on Government to assess the level of support for closing the street on a regular basis at certain times on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays during the tourist season. There was a 50-50 split in response to this question. Given that there has not been any fundamental change in the make-up of Government Street, it is unlikely that the position of business and property owners has changed. In light of this, the DVBA encourages the Citizens for the Government Street Pedestrian Mall to develop some special events on the street which will support the arts and add to the entertainment value of downtown, but not involve the permanent or extended closure of the street. The DVBA is fully supportive of closing the street for special occasions and most willing to work with others to create events to reinforce its appeal. We are not supportive of closing the street on a permanent or on an extended basis.

At present, there is a reasonable volume of vehicular traffic on Government Street and it moves at a low speed. With the street being open to traffic, drivers and their passengers are exposed to the wonderful array of businesses that they may wish to support. Pedestrian malls in Canada have generally had a poor record of success and lack of exposure to vehicular traffic is one of the reasons for their failure. The Government Street sidewalks were designed to accommodate higher flows of pedestrian traffic and at present, the DVBA believes the sidewalks can handle that demand without taking away from the enjoyment of the street. If the streets are closed and nothing is programmed as entertainment to occupy the centre of the street, there will be a detrimental, vacant image created for visitors to our city, not a positive one.

If there are any changes that the DVBA would like to see on Government, it is to extend the “pedestrian design” north from Yates Street to Chinatown and the CRD Plaza at Fisgard. The DVBA and City have partnered on a number of initiatives over the past four years and it is certainly possible for the DVBA Board to decide to contribute some funds toward this type of initiative.

March 30, 2009

Kenneth Kelly

General Manager

Downtown Victoria Business Association
20 Centennial Square
Victoria BC
V8W 1P7

The DRA has no official policy yet on this topic although we certainly would support more programming for Government St. at all times. My personal opinion, for what it's worth, is that I would like to try it in the summer evenings for a trial period as I've witnessed some of the crowds spill over onto the roadway during the busy evenings. But some members agree with Ken, saying pedestrian malls can be dead zones and I can respect that. A lot of things have to happen for pedestrian mall to become inviting, vibrant and successful.

Here is a previous thread on this topic.

[Newlywednotnearlydead]

In the summer, I think it's a good idea. I walk through downtown a lot on my lunch breaks and it's a zoo in that area during tourist season. I've seen more than a few incidents of road rage when people get sick of waiting for the hordes of pedestrians at the 4 way stops and gun it when there's a small opening.

I think it would be a lot of fun to have some decent buskers performing right in the middle of the street while people shop in the stores. That would take some of the busker pressure off the Inner Harbour too, the acts could spread out a bit so the crowds weren't all clustered in one confined area.

[Rob Randall]

The commentary on C-FAX this morning said closure would have worked had they implemented a plan to make Douglas one-way north and upgrade Wharf St. to one-way southbound. But politics and money would make that unlikely.

[Mike K.]

Isn't City Hall thinking of making one-way streets two-way streets? Lowe spoke about that during his last year as mayor, I think.

[amor de cosmos]

more one-way streets is a BAD idea imho

[Mike K.]

I've merged this existing Government closure thread with the latest one started in regards to the Downtown Victoria Business Association's position on the idea.

[yodsaker]

It works in Europe but in Canada we can't summon the courage to see a street without cars.

[G-Man]

The TC editorial today has a great point. While I have been a supporter of this idea it won't work until we allow a significant increase in the downtown population. We would need at least 10 to 20 new residential buildings in a five to six block radius of Government Street to make this a viable proposition.

This is something that people and I would include myself often just don't get. You can't simply alter the built environment to make it fit some vision of another place, in this case the pedestrian zones of europe. We see this all too often in Victoria with regard to the many "villages" around the core. Now I am a huge supporters of creating this alternate nodes for shopping as it benefits our goal of reducing car use and imprioving health but to make the same villages economically viable along with improving the sidewalks and boulevards and putting up new light standards we also need to increase the density surrounding the village to create living spaces for people to use the village.

The short of it is that, just because you want one thing doesn't mean that you are not going to need a whole bunch of other things you are not considering (or in some case, do not want) to get there.

[Bernard]

I like the theory of pedestrian malls, but they have to be well thought out.

I have seen many pedestrian only areas in Europe that work well. I also grew up with Granville Mall in Vancouver.

How do you make the area work as a pedestrian mall? What will make people use the space and enjoy it? Would we do this for tourists or for locals?

To my mind it strikes me that a part time closure of government from Humbolt to Fort would make the most sense. Do this from 3 pm to 10 pm evenings from the Victoria Day Weekend through to Labour Day weekend.

Rent out space on the street for buskers and people selling gewgaws to the tourists.

[G-Man]

That may work but it would be better to build density around government street first.

[yodsaker]

That may work but it would be better to build density around government street first.

Good point but it could be ped-only during tourist season when there is density within walking distance.

Pandora to the Ledge, opening out to the Inner Harbour as visual reward makes it one of the most attractive streets in the whole country, if not the most. It actually has a euro feel (without self-consciously aping Europe) with the wide promenades, pollarded trees and sidewalk cafes without barriers.

The animation and interaction of people able to move freely without vehicles would make it the absloute jewel of Canadan streets. It would offer people something alive and different instead of the same stale urban stuff we have now.

Euro ped streets manage to accommodate dual-use, they allow deliveries up to 10am and then put in the removable bollards. But from what I've seen coast2coast in Canada the fear is that we will lose people if we lose the cars. Walkers go into stores, motorists pass by then have the parking hassle if they want to go back to a shop. Downtown for people, malls for cars.

[G-Man]

^ I agree especially since you can only park in about 20 spots from Humboldt to Yates. I highly doubt that the loss of those 20 spots is going to cost anyone a dime.

[Bernard]

Whistler has a decent functioning pedestrian mall in the upper village. But it was purpose built.

[G-Man]

^ true but using that logic, Centennial Square should be a wonderful pedestrian environment too.

[yodsaker]

^ true but using that logic, Centennial Square should be a wonderful pedestrian environment too.

True, but it ain't. Why?
Location, location, location.
Got to be reasons to go there, want to be there.
Euro ped zones, streets and squares grew out of traditional ancient markets that evolved from locations conducive to human activity - road crossings, river fronts, boat landings etc. There needs to be a 'there' there. The Inner Harbour is a perfect visual payoff to a ped street, a natural magnet and focal point by virtue of its beauty and historic harbour function. These things are organic, they can't just be off-loaded from the meeting room, drafting table and consultant's study.

As for Centennial Square? Well, a fountain and a statue simply aren't enough. Nothing happens there, at least not much that will bring people other than the current denizens. The only magnet nearby is Chinatown which is attractive and vibrant in its own right and not really connected.

[Bernard]

True, but it ain't. Why?
Location, location, location.
Got to be reasons to go there, want to be there.
Euro ped zones, streets and squares grew out of traditional ancient markets that evolved from locations conducive to human activity - road crossings, river fronts, boat landings etc. There needs to be a 'there' there. The Inner Harbour is a perfect visual payoff to a ped street, a natural magnet and focal point by virtue of its beauty and historic harbour function. These things are organic, they can't just be off-loaded from the meeting room, drafting table and consultant's study.

As for Centennial Square? Well, a fountain and a statue simply aren't enough. Nothing happens there, at least not much that will bring people other than the current denizens. The only magnet nearby is Chinatown which is attractive and vibrant in its own right and not really connected.

Just creating a pedestrian area will not make it work. There are a huge number of issues that make it work or do not make it work.

You need a reason for people to want to walk there - Beacon Ave in Sudney is closed Thursday evenings for the farmers market and is very successful as a community gathering place. Government works well for tourist traffic, but us locals have no reason to use the street between Humbolt and Fort.

The design has to be more than just no cars. The Zeil in Frankfurt was made a pedestrian mall post war and it works because it is effectively an open air mall. Government is not anywhere close to being like that as most of the stores hold no interest for locals.

You also have to think about environmental factors that might impact. Government between Humbolt and Fort suffers from being in building shadows in the afternoon. It does not make for a great place to sit outside for most of the street unless it is quite warm. The Tallinn town square works very well because it is wonderfully sunny almost all day long.

We have two existing pedestrian areas in the city, Market Square and Bastion Square.

I love how Market Square looks and would love to rent an office space in there, but it is not a thriving for businesses.

Bastion Square I do think works and I think one should use as the start to a pedestrian zone. Closing Langley and allowing restaurants to seat people on the streets would I think word well.

You extend then to Government and close it from Fort to View or Yates.

Just thinking about how something could be done that would boost downtown.

[G-Man]

^ That is an interesting suggestion. I like the viral option for pedestrian areas downtown and it actually makes sense logically.