2343 replies to this topic

[G-Man]

I have a feeling that this is not going to go ahead with this current council. The meeting at cityhall will be a panfest.

[Holden West]

The fact that MP Savoie is getting into this spells doom. The eager-to-please NDP newbie Councillors are unlikely to go off message. Savoie's presence is a not-so-subtle signal to Council to not get too enthused about this new marina.

[Ms. B. Havin]

This is an odd city that way. While everyone is entitled to differing opinions - bitterness seems to simmer about anything short of one's own version of perfection.

I dont understand why business people are seen as the enemy. I think anyone who creates, invests, and makes things happen is an asset.

Great weather but co-existence seems to be a real challenge in Vic City.

Sadly, this is pretty spot-on. Add "resentment" to "simmer" - a low boil of people feeling like they should be offended and/or outraged about something, anything.

I thought this closing section of Keith Vass's 2/12 Vic News article on the subject was telling (and prophetic):

Evans was non-committal when asked if he would attend the community association’s meeting, saying he expected it would likely only attract a handful of people already decided against the project.

“Cities don’t work very well if there’s always a conflict. And there’s always a conflict in Victoria,” he said.

Perhaps it's not really a "Victoria thing" - maybe we just have a larger proportion of engaged residents. But still...

PS: full (partial?) disclosure - I'm non-committal on the project overall. Need to see more information/ plans - my first instinct is not pro-mega anything, though. But I haven't found the "anti" side's arguments at all convincing.

@ Holden: yes, I wonder too about Savoie's involvement - unless it's because she's the MP and this somehow involves the larger issue of the Harbour <ahem, airport, anyone?> and that involves the Federal level (Canada Transport)? But whatever it is, it's like a signal to Fortin and council to toe the NDP line.

[Holden West]

^You are correct. I shouldn't be so hasty. Savoie's interests are legitimate and she's not overstepping any boundaries. Yet Savoie, Rob Fleming and Carole James all have deep grassroots support and are a strong link between local politics and the leadership from on high.

I too would need to see more renderings in order to get a feel for the marina.

[amor de cosmos]

what do you people think Denise Savoie can do about this? I know the "horizontal highrise" idea came about in the 70s when the BC Socreds wanted to build the 205m BC Centre (~8m taller than the new Shangri-La building). Then Dave Barrett & the NDP got elected & what Vancouver got was Robson Square the Law Courts we know today. So I guess that's why everything has to be a horizontal highrise now, but I don't know what that has to do with the federal NDP. This (non-mega) marina is a private project, not a government one like the BC Centre was. I don't know what Victoria's MP can do abou that, except to talk about it.

[aastra]

Perhaps it's not really a "Victoria thing"...

No, it's sure not. A few years ago I linked to an article at Skyscraperpage.com re: a development debate in Buffalo, NY. I'm not kidding when I say that article could have been copied almost word-for-word and applied to all sorts of different development debates in Victoria and nobody would have known the difference.

I was later inspired to observe how most of the opposition to a new development tends to be generic, whereas most of the support for a new development tends to be specific.

Somebody in Halifax coined the phrase "eternal opposition is not a principle" during the debate about the fancy twisted tower that had been proposed for their downtown. Exactly right! If somebody's mind is open, then you'll affect them by offering sound arguments. This sort of "conflict" is good, I think.

But if "conflict" means the polarization of an issue into two brain-dead political platforms that are 180 degrees from each other, then I don't think it's good at all.

[VicHockeyFan]

I see Savoie is quoted in todays TC talking about "these gas-guzzling ships".

That's up there with Fortin asking how much condos are gonna cost. What's the point?

That COHO is one heck of a gas-guzzler too, maybe we should kick it out of town. And the harbour ferries.

[amor de cosmos]

I was later inspired to observe how most of the opposition to a new development tends to be generic, whereas most of the support for a new development tends to be specific.

Somebody in Halifax coined the phrase "eternal opposition is not a principle" during the debate about the fancy twisted tower that had been proposed for their downtown. Exactly right! If somebody's mind is open, then you'll affect them by offering sound arguments. This sort of "conflict" is good, I think.

But if "conflict" means the polarization of an issue into two brain-dead political platforms that are 180 degrees from each other, then I don't think it's good at all.

that's what that Hans Blumenfeld thing was supposed to be about, even though the Kirk Hall office bulding & Rogers Choc heritage things are specific things that have caused conflict recently.

I see Savoie is quoted in todays TC talking about "these gas-guzzling ships".

That's up there with Fortin asking how much condos are gonna cost. What's the point?

That COHO is one heck of a gas-guzzler too, maybe we should kick it out of town. And the harbour ferries.

the Coho probably gets a lot more regular use than those boats at the marina would also. it's one thng to have a gas guzzler, but it doesn't guzzle nearly as much gas when it's not in use.

[VicHockeyFan]

that's what that Hans Blumenfeld thing was supposed to be about, even though the Kirk Hall office bulding & Rogers Choc heritage things are specific things that have caused conflict recently.



the Coho probably gets a lot more regular use than those boats at the marina would also. it's one thng to have a gas guzzler, but it doesn't guzzle nearly as much gas when it's not in use.

The average guy that shows up with a huge yacht will spend a LOT more $ here than you average COHO passenger.

[Marina-man]

The event on Tuesday night was silly. What's the point of 'community consultation' if the proponent isn't allowed to answer anyone's questions? Especially when the proponent isn't even allowed to finish a presentation intended to inform people and answer their concerns.

There is a marina Open House information forum on March 7th, 2pm - 5pm at the Delta Victoria Ocean Pointe Hotel Harbour Room. The architect will be there with renderings and a model, the environmental scientists will be there, the wind and wave scientists will be there, and the proponents will be there, all available to answer any questions anyone has. Come anytime between 2pm and 5pm.

[Icebergalley]

I ♥ Paddling Victoria’s Harbour


Remember “Sit-Ins”? Well things may have changed a bit, and we might be a bit older, but when there’s an issue that’s important to speak up about, “power in numbers” is still the best way to get attention.
So, if you are one of the many paddlesports enthusiasts who love paddling in Victoria’s Harbour, then come out and show your support for our public waterways, and your opposition to the proposed Mega Yacht Marina.

What:
A “Paddler’s Rally” to visually let everyone know that we have something to say! A gathering of paddlers (of all types) from the Victoria area paddling sports community.

When:
Saturday March 7th 2009, 3:00 PM (this coincides with an open house organized by the developer - Community Marine Concepts Ltd - at the Delta Ocean Point Resort from 2:00 - 5:00PM). Please try to get to the site a bit before 3:00 pm

Where:
Everyone will meet on the water at the proposed Community Marine Concepts Ltd Mega Yacht Marina Location – directly in front of the Songhees Condominiums (see map below).
Some suggested put-ins for launching your kayak are: VCVC clubhouse, Esquimalt- Gorge Park, Banfield Park on Stiles Rd, or at Jutland Rd near the SelkirkTrestle
Also, Brian Henry at Ocean River Sports (ORS) will be offering a free kayak rental for anyone wishing to join in. In this case, you would put in at ORS on Store St. Contact ORS at 250-381-4233 well in advance
And likewise, Cliff at Victoria Kayak Tours (VKT) is also offering a free kayak rental for this event. Contact Cliff at 250-216-5646. This put-in would be at VKT at the Harbour Air Adventure Centre.

The Plan:
Brian Henry is trying to organize an aerial photograph to be taken for publicity so it is important that everyone is at the location on the water in their boats a bit before 3 pm
Hopefully a perimeter will be marked off on the water to gather all paddlers in a group for the photograph.
After the gathering of paddlers at the proposed site, everyone is welcome and encouraged to paddle together to the Songees Beach in front of the Delta Inn, where we can land and join the Open House to offer our opinions.

Why:
To demonstrate the paddling community’s profound concern regarding Community Marine Concepts Ltd’s Marina proposal, and to show our support for access to shared public waterways – including our Harbour!


Who:
Everyone who loves getting on the water in human powered vessels – canoeists (marathon, tripping, voyageur), kayakers, stand-up board paddlers, OC6, OC2, OC1 paddlers, dragon boaters, rowers, surf ski paddlers… All are welcome and encouraged to come paddle with us!.


Background Information:
If the proposed $20-million marina along the shores of the Songhees walkway goes ahead, then multimillion-dollar luxury mega-yachts (vessels 65 to 140 feet in length) will soon be docking in Victoria’s harbour (see www.victoriainternationalmarina.ca for more information about, and more renderings of, the proposal). The development permit application is here: http://www.arfd.bc.c...sp?PostID=10349)
If successful this development proposal will greatly constrict an already busy harbour and will effectively block the established channel for non-motorized vessels through the harbour. This route is used year-round by numerous paddlers in kayaks, canoes, outriggers, and surf skis etc. Blocking the channel established for non-power vessels would force boaters to: A) paddle through a private marina designed for mega yachts, or B) paddle around the marina along the edge of (or into) the very busy float plane taxiway.
Proponents of the project propose access though the marina, but the paddling community has both safety and access concerns. Navigating any boat through a working marina could be problematic. A steady flow of small human powered vessels in such close proximity to large vessels under power is difficult.
Public access to a private marina can also be rescinded at any time.
Going around the marina will require paddling very close along the edge of the float plane taxiway. This is a hazard not only to resident paddlers who use the area, but especially for the many tourists who paddle Victoria’s harbour every year, as visitors to our city will be least aware of the harbour rules and the need to stay out of the runway.
The paddling community is faced with a serious limitation of its existing rights of access to a public resource. As proposed, this development will create a major obstacle to public non-motorized access from the Gorge to Lime Bay (the bay by Spinnakers Pub) and all points beyond.

There is very little time to respond to the mega yacht marina proposal. Come out on March 7th to support public waterways and your harbour!

[amor de cosmos]

can anyone tell me how this marina will be different from the marinas at Canoe, below Value Village, Fisherman's Wharf, etc? from what I can see in renderings there are no "mega yachts" & this marina isn't much different from the marinas that already exist. the boats are definitely no bigger than the tall ships that dock down by the Empress (& obstruct my view!! ) re: paddlers iirc rowers aren't allowed past Johnson St anymore, I presume because they act like they own the harbour & never followed the flow pattern (stay to starboard, just like driving a car). I wonder if paddlers need similar rules if they can't stay out of the way of traffic in the harbour.

[Icebergalley]

re: paddlers iirc rowers aren't allowed past Johnson St anymore,

Incorrect info. Paddlers and rowers are permitted in the Victoria Inner Harbour and beyond... Please consult the Victoria Harbour Management scheme that has been posted elsewhere on this thread.

Other marinas..

The ones you cite do not obstruct the navigation channel.

Vic Int. Marina.. is, in my opinion, too big of its location and requires Transport Canada to permit the alteration of the navigatiable waters to allow it. It also requires that the Province issue a water lot lease as shown on the proponents renderings. This would take navigabll, non motorized waters away from people who have been sharing them and alienate a portion of them for the mooring of yachts. It would take publically shared waters away from a multitude of users and provide them to a private project.

[amor de cosmos]

re: paddlers iirc rowers aren't allowed past Johnson St anymore,

Incorrect info. Paddlers and rowers are permitted in the Victoria Inner Harbour and beyond... Please consult the Victoria Harbour Management scheme that has been posted elsewhere on this thread.

i searched this thread for the word "management" & the only result was that reply ^ so I will continue to go on what I heard from a Gorge dragonboater last summer who said rowers & dragonboaters aren't allowed past Johnson St anymore. (Strange that I hadn't noticed that there were no rowing shells on that side of the harbour for so long) Once again, I presume it's because the rowers always ignored the flow pattern on the harbour. it's not like Elk Lake where there's practically no other traffic to worry about.

Other marinas..

The ones you cite do not obstruct the navigation channel.

Vic Int. Marina.. is, in my opinion, too big of its location and requires Transport Canada to permit the alteration of the navigatiable waters to allow it. It also requires that the Province issue a water lot lease as shown on the proponents renderings. This would take navigabll, non motorized waters away from people who have been sharing them and alienate a portion of them for the mooring of yachts. It would take publically shared waters away from a multitude of users and provide them to a private project.

doesn't look like ths one obstructs the navigation channel any more than the others:


if the proponent proposes access through the marina why not just go see what they're planning?

[Baro]

Good map, I was wondering what impact it would have and after seeing that map the impact is absolutely in line with everything else in the area. I don't own a boat, I'm not rich enough to use this marina nor do I work in an associated industry that would benefit from this facility, but I support this marina because I try to base my support on what is good for the city, not just my self. Things change, people adapt. We should be begging for jobs and construction here, not chasing them away because a kayaker might have a view slight changed.

[Icebergalley]

Amor etc. came from posting # 9..

edit: realized the link opens a very small picture,
go here for and click on the picture to open a PDF of the map:
http://www.victoriah...org/marinas.php

[Icebergalley]

"if the proponent proposes access through the marina why not just go see what they're planning?"

"We have reviewed their documents, expressed our opinions to both Transprot Canada and the Integrated Lamd Management people and we will attend their meeting...

[amor de cosmos]

Songhees marina meeting Saturday
Proponent says mega-yacht facility faces a big misinformation problem
By Carla Wilson, Times Colonist
March 4, 2009

The proponent of a contentious planned mega-yacht marina at Songhees is hosting a public meeting Saturday afternoon at the Delta Victoria Ocean Pointe Resort.

"Our biggest problem is misinformation," said developer Bob Evans. He's a partner with Western Asset Management Development Group of Alberta in the $20-million development.

[...]

http://www.timescolo...html?id=1351505

heaven forbid that there be waves on the harbour...

[aastra]

Lots of pictures here:
http://www.flickr.co...ian/3339635177/

So kayakers would have to navigate right through the marina and then under that curved span? That seems less than ideal.

[pseudotsuga]

^looks like it. According to the harbour map posted earlier, this completely cuts off the non-motorized access route connecting the upper harbour and west bay/outer harbour.
I'd be interested to hear what paddlers thought of what the developer presented at the meeting.