40 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

Way too much border crossing nightmares to build that bridge. In europe they can do stuff like that but we'd have to have some sort of terrifying union or very strong agreement with the US to really build a link like that. For pure geography that's a reasonable path (if we had the future-engineering to build it) but politically it would be impossible.

Not really. You clear customs on the Saan Penn to outgoing traffic and in Bellingham for incoming traffic. RFID would track your progress along the bridge with no exits or entries aside from the terminus at either end so there is no security risk to speak of.

[gumgum]

^If there are no off or on ramps on the smaller islands, there would be no benefit to them. and yet they would suffer all of the disadvantages of having a bridge carving their land in half.
A pretty hard sell. Especially considering it's all for the benefit of another country.

[Mike K.]

It's hard to say whether or not residents would want exits or entrances. Afterall, easy access to their islands would create a population boom and lead to more visitors/vehicular traffic. And I suppose one solution could be a mixed tunnel/highway road if necessary.

[LJ]

Yeah thats great - get a fixed link that requires a border wait at SP, then another border wait at Bellingham to get back into Canada, then an hour drive to Vancouver.

Shouldn't take more than 6 hours. Brilliant.

I would rather wait at the ferry terminal for two sailings, where you park your car and get out and walk around and still get there faster.

Whoever drew this wonder up never sat in a border line up.

Might be OK if your destination was in the states but who is going to finance that bridge. The Canadian Govt. sure isn't. The American Govt. sure isn't.

I am afraid that one is a pure pipe dream.

[Koru]

Time for a bridge to mainland?
Idea not likely to stay afloat, experts say
Katherine Dedyna, Times Colonist
Published: Friday, July 25, 2008

When ferry fees go up, so do calls for a fixed link between Vancouver Island and the mainland.

"Start pouring the foundations for the bridge today," Chris Prestly posted on the Times Colonist website in the wake of this week's hike to $61.40 for car and driver come Aug. 1. "I've got no problem paying a toll vs. these insane ferry surcharges."

But does the idea hold water? Maybe not, experts say. Here's why.

YOU CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE

A fixed link would definitely not run between Victoria and Vancouver. It would likely be located somewhere between Nanaimo and Duncan and Delta. That's because the route would need to cover the shortest distance across the Strait of Georgia, says chief engineer Dirk Nyland of the Ministry of Transportation.

For Victorians, that would mean time-consuming, gas-guzzling trips over the Malahat, and traverses on Galiano and Saltspring islands.

AND IT WOULDN'T BE CHEAP

According to a 2002 report posted on the B.C. Ministry of Transportation's website, fares to cross such a bridge would range between $260 to $800. And that's only one way.

Why so much?

Costly fares are almost inevitable for such structures, because they are so expensive to build. The province could not bear the cost alone, and a private-sector partner would require a return on its investment of between 12 and 20 per cent, according to the ministry.

Even six years ago, the province projected the link would cost between $8 billion and $12 billion.

University of Victoria economist Daniel Rondeau says he wouldn't be surprised if the real costs rose "at least 50 per cent," given inflation and increased costs in labour, concrete and steel.

"It's one in a thousand that a cost-benefit analysis would ever turn up something like 'It's an economically viable project,' " he says.

The annual operating budget for the three major ferry routes a fixed link would replace is $253.5 million.

Issues? Start counting

There are "extreme" waves of up to seven metres, tides of six metres, earthquake threats and wind gusts up to 180 kilometres per hour.

Other traffic is also an issue. There is the risk of a tanker running into a bridge -- about 45,000 vessels use the strait annually. A contractor would need to dredge two channels at least 200 metres wide and 65 metres deep to accommodate those vessels.

Underwater landslides are possible because of potential instabilities on the mainland marine slope.

DEEP WATER

The Strait of Georgia is 10 times deeper than the water crossed by Prince Edward Island's Confederation Bridge to New Brunswick.

The ocean there is 35 metres deep over a rock bottom, versus 365 metres of water and just as many of mud in the Strait of Georgia, says Sharlie Huffman, bridge seismic engineer with the Ministry of Transportation.

A bridge over the Strait of Georgia would run 24 to 26 kilometres, nearly 10 times as long as the $1.8 billion Rion Antirion Bridge in Greece, which is also in a seismic zone with deep sediment. But the Greek bridge is in water only 65 metres deep.

A fixed link is possible in theory, Nyland says, but "in practice, while the technology seems to be there, it's never been used that way before."

So what about a floating bridge?

"There are no fixed bridges in existence today that would meet the conditions present in Georgia Strait," the 2002 government report says.

Floating bridges have only been used on short distances, Nyland says, giving as an example the 2.3-kilometre bridge that runs from Seattle to Mercer Island in Washington state.

High winds and heavy shipping on 25 kilometres of open water are big problems. Anchor cable hundreds of metres deep could affect whales and fishing, Nyland adds.

Even if financing were in place today, a bridge would take at least five years of planning and six to 10 years to build.

"No one is going to build such a thing," says Guy Dauncey, president of the B.C. Sustainable Energy Association.

There might also be resistance to a fixed link that would connect Vancouver Island to the rest of the province. After all, it raises the spectre of regular commuters from the mainland who might make Island communities suburbs of Vancouver.

kdedyna@tc.canwest.com

[Nparker]

Every time BC Ferries raises its fares this idea gets "floated" (pun intended) again. No fixed linked between Vancouver Island and the Mainland will be happening in my lifetime or for several lifetimes more.

[Holden West]

Yep, I hope today's article is the final nail in the coffin of the debate.

[Mike K.]

What we need is a no-frills option. If there are barges that shuttle commercial traffic between the mainland and the Island then why doesn't such a service exist for personal vehicles? There's got to be a market for this.

[aastra]

There might also be resistance to a fixed link that would connect Vancouver Island to the rest of the province. After all, it raises the spectre of regular commuters from the mainland who might make Island communities suburbs of Vancouver.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the bridge toll would range between $260 to $800, one way. Oh, wait, it was at the beginning of that very article.

The menace of prohibitively expensive tolls and the menace of daily commutes to the mainland just don't jive.

[aastra]

Also, the total driving distance involved in this hypothetical "commute" into Vancouver proper would be about the same as the distance from downtown Vancouver to Chilliwack, and that's just for those lucky people who live closest to the bridge (Chemainus/Duncan/Mill Bay). Nobody in their right minds would pay big bucks for that sort of grief.

[Holden West]

I think it was someone on the radio that said there are no snowplows on a ferry route.

Fixed link advocates are chumps.

[vandervalk]

I'd be more than happy to have a foot passenger only ferry from the Inner Harbour to Vancouver Harbour. I don't always need a car when I'm in Vancouver but I find it too much of a hassle to take the bus.

It would be great to be able to catch the ferry right down town, spend the day shopping, sight-seeing and eating dinner out and catch the last ferry back to Victoria.

It would also bring in more tourists from Vancouver who might not have a car or feel like renting a car. Getting to Tswwassen is a pain in the arse from both sides.

I'd be willing to pay double what the current cost for a foot passenger is with BC Ferries to have that ease.

The price to set this up would be FAR LESS than a bridge.

I personally don't have a problem with paying $63 to get across with a car because I only do it once or twice a year.

But on the other hand I probably would go over more if it was half that price.

[aastra]

Downtown to downtown by boat has to be three times the sailing distance of Swartz Bay to Tsawwassen, yes? Does anybody know how long that trip would take? I'm thinking there's no way it could work as a competitive alternative to the floatplanes.

[vandervalk]

I figure it would be the same, if not less distance than the Clipper has to make to get to Seattle.

Looking online it says 43 miles or 69 kms.

If you had a high powered boat, like the Clipper doing 30 knots, it should only take about 2 - 2.5 hours.

I could be way off base there though.

What is the total round trip cost for float planes these days? About $250?

[Nparker]

The harbour-to-harbour Vic-Van route via passenger only vessel has been tried, and it failed to be profitible back in the early 90s. I remember taking it once and the trip was about 2.5 hours or about the same as the Clipper to Seattle. I can't recall the price (this was at least 15 yers ago), but it was certainly a good deal more than the foot passenger price on BC Ferries (which of course was MUCH lower back then). Even though the overall travel time was about the same as BC Ferries (including ground time on both sides) I remember thinking at the time that for pure convenience it was well worth the price. Of course I was younger and (more) foolish then. I'd support a similar service today in a heartbeat.

[VicHockeyFan]

The harbour-to-harbour Vic-Van route via passenger only vessel has been tried, and it failed to be profitible back in the early 90s. I remember taking it once and the trip was about 2.5 hours or about the same as the Clipper to Seattle. I can't recall the price (this was at least 15 yers ago), but it was certainly a good deal more than the foot passenger price on BC Ferries (which of course was MUCH lower back then). Even though the overall travel time was about the same as BC Ferries (including ground time on both sides) I remember thinking at the time that for pure convenience it was well worth the price. Of course I was younger and (more) foolish then. I'd support a similar service today in a heartbeat.

It was about $30. I used it a lot and loved it. But it seemed a bit lame that it took 45 minutes just to get to Sidney. It was also limited to about 5mph in the harbour to keep wake down, so it took nearly 10 minutes to get up to full speed past the breakwater.

[VicHockeyFan]

I'm nearly sure that an express bus that goes from downtown to Sidney, meets a high-speed ferry and with another direct bus into downtown Vancouver could be viable if it had free or low-priced docking on each side.

I say open the ferry terminals to competitors, just like an airport.

[jklymak]

Oh boy:

Island fixed link possible, P.E.I. bridge designer says

[gumgum]

But fears about the destruction of P.E.I. life never transpired with the Confederation Bridge, contends Pat McGeer, a Socred cabinet minister who called for bridge proposals in the early 1980s. A unique island lifestyle shouldn't justify "the massive inefficiency" of ferry service and subsidies, he adds.

This comparison doesn't make any sense. There is no urban core anywhere near Confederation Bridge on the mainland side. Let alone something the size of the Lower Mainland. You drive for miles of nothing before you reach the Confederation Bridge. Of course PEI's culture and development wasn't significantly effected by the mainland - because there's nothing there.

[yodsaker]

Fast ferries, anyone?