2049 replies to this topic

[rjag]

Geoff Young on CFAX this morning said outside lawyers were brought in plus a lot of staff time was invested in this

[spanky123]

Geoff Young on CFAX this morning said outside lawyers were brought in plus a lot of staff time was invested in this

 

Of course outside lawyers were brought in. Staff counsel would have insisted on it as they are not experts in every aspect of law and certainly wouldn't want to appear in front of a judge of the supreme court without being fully prepped.

[rmpeers]

Geoff Young on CFAX this morning said outside lawyers were brought in plus a lot of staff time was invested in this

So this seems to directly contradict what the mayor said. Interesting.

[spanky123]

So this seems to directly contradict what the mayor said. Interesting.

Sadly that isn’t even a story anymore. The Mayor saying or tweeting something that is immediately discredited or proven false is almost a daily occurrence.

[rmpeers]

To be fair, the current council isn't the one that enacted the ban. The sole councilor who voted against the bag, Geoff Young, did win reelection, and a councilor who voted in favour of the ban, Pam Madoff, lost reelection. But the mayor and councilors Isitt, Loveday, Alto, and Thornton-Joe voted in favour of the ban and won reelection, so either the electorate supported the ban (due to the reelection of these 5) or it wasn't a major factor in their voting decisions.

Based on this, the court decision overturning the ban is unlikely to hurt councilors running for reelection; even though some voters (including you) will be upset about the costs involved, the general electorate doesn't seem to be galvanized around these kinds of spending issues. After all, Mayors Dejardins and Helps were reelected despite taxpayer awareness of how the Elsner case was handled.

Spending issues that lead to a reduction in services (such as police department cutbacks) *may* have an impact in the next election; there were no service reductions proposed in any city department prior to the 2018 council elections.

I also think people who rent their homes may not draw any connection between ballooning property taxes and the cost of their rent. Sadly, I think a colorful brochure and some glib, meaningless talk is all it takes to win votes.

[spanky123]

We have several senior CoV staff that read this forum so let me ask the question. You are sitting at your desk, working hard at doing a good job, and you hear the Mayor making claims that you know are false, or even worse asking you to back those claims. How do you feel?

Do you just take the paycheque and mind your own business? At what point does integrity, dignity and self-respect kick in or does it not?

[rjag]

Sadly that isn’t even a story anymore. The Mayor saying or tweeting something that is immediately discredited or proven false is almost a daily occurrence.

 

I wonder where she got the 17 million plastic bags arent going to the landfill anymore claim?

 

CoV population 2016 Census was 85,000 with 45,700 dwellings.

 

That translates into 372 plastic bags per dwelling per year. Of that number I will guesstimate 1/2 of the dwellings use reusable bags on a regular basis and apply the 1/2 towards folks coming into the city to buy stuff. Most grocery stores are outside of CoV proper

 

Now how many of that 372 bags were replaced with Glad kitchen catchers etc?

 

I doubt in our household we used more than 2-3 plastic bags in a month

 

 

 

 https://www12.statca...1&B1=All&type=0

[Nparker]

...how many of that 372 bags were replaced with Glad kitchen catchers etc?...

All of mine were.

[rmpeers]

I wonder where she got the 17 million plastic bags arent going to the landfill anymore claim?

CoV population 2016 Census was 85,000 with 45,700 dwellings.

That translates into 372 plastic bags per dwelling per year. Of that number I will guesstimate 1/2 of the dwellings use reusable bags on a regular basis and apply the 1/2 towards folks coming into the city to buy stuff. Most grocery stores are outside of CoV proper

Now how many of that 372 bags were replaced with Glad kitchen catchers etc?

I doubt in our household we used more than 2-3 plastic bags in a month



https://www12.statca...1&B1=All&type=0

I think the mayor and several councillors continue to adhere closely to the Trump Playbook. Once you've established that your voting base isn't really inclined twards readin' or thinkin', then who cares if your facts are really true or not? The base don't care, just say whatever comes into your head.

[Ismo07]

I wonder where she got the 17 million plastic bags arent going to the landfill anymore claim?

 

CoV population 2016 Census was 85,000 with 45,700 dwellings.

 

That translates into 372 plastic bags per dwelling per year. Of that number I will guesstimate 1/2 of the dwellings use reusable bags on a regular basis and apply the 1/2 towards folks coming into the city to buy stuff. Most grocery stores are outside of CoV proper

 

Now how many of that 372 bags were replaced with Glad kitchen catchers etc?

 

I doubt in our household we used more than 2-3 plastic bags in a month

 

 

 

 https://www12.statca...1&B1=All&type=0

 

I'm not defending the numbers or trying to work it out but to be fair more than just residents of Victoria shop in Victoria.  There might also be times, an assumption, where some shoppers (Greater Vic residents) are used to having a reusable bag and use them outside of banned bag areas which further reduces the use of these bags.  So not sure these numbers are fairly representing the correct number either, likely somewhere in between.

 

Overall I think we can all agree reducing these plastic bags is a good thing.  Using them twice, once for getting stuff home and once for garbage isn't great but I agree if you are buying garbage bags and only saving other bags for this purpose then  I get that argument.  The issue is that not a large % of reusable bags are being used as garbage bags.  Again I don't know what that number is and individually you all might do that but I don't believe that a high % of convenience bags get this use.  As an example someone grabs some quick food from a convenience store, bag of chips, soda and a chocolate bar.  This bag if the person is eating while walking either goes in the garbage or on the ground.  Not sure if they needed this bag to begin with.

 

I'd argue for most of us plastic bags end up in a closet or some catcher under the sink to be used for garbage but many folks would end up with so many at some point (isn't enough garbage to use them all) they end up in the landfill.  While its easy to recycle them they are not the easiest to do so landfill they go.

 

I guess in short, yes you would buy kitchen garbage bags and they still go but still would say a large % of the plastic bags received do not get used for this purpose.  Maybe that's the difference.  With all the recycling, reusing and composting personally I don't empty my garbage enough to constitute getting plastic bags every time I buy something, I would need an entire room for them and where do they go from there?

[mbjj]

I'm sure we don't use that many plastic garbage bags. If we buy a box of 40 or 50, it seems to last forever.

[spanky123]

^^ The point is the 17 million is a made up number. The Mayor could have left out the number, said what you have said, estimated an amount, etc but she didn't.  In my opinion Helps has so little respect for anyone anymore that she feels she is beyond any reproach and can just do or say anything she wants.

 

Right in the court documents Fraser Work is quoted as saying that the City has no idea what impact plastic bags have.

[rjag]

I'm not defending the numbers or trying to work it out but to be fair more than just residents of Victoria shop in Victoria.  There might also be times, an assumption, where some shoppers (Greater Vic residents) are used to having a reusable bag and use them outside of banned bag areas which further reduces the use of these bags.  So not sure these numbers are fairly representing the correct number either, likely somewhere in between.

 

 

Yup Thats why I factored in saying if 1/2 households use resusables then apply their quota to folks from outside CoV. I also noted that there arent as many grocery stores in CoV as opposed to the rest of the CRD.

[spanky123]

Ok Looks like I found the source of the Mayor's claim. https://pub-victoria...documentid=1492

 

The staff report referenced a 7 year old article in the Globe and Mail that stated each person used 200 plastic bags per year "much of which went to the landfill or escaped recycling programs". 

 

The G&M article is here. https://www.theglobe...article4241011/

 

The G&M article referenced a 6 year old City of Toronto report (2005) that stated about 450 million plastic bags were used in Toronto every year. Don't know how 450 million / 5 million people equals 200 each. 

 

The City of Toronto report referenced an Irish study in 2002 ....

 

You get the idea. It is like a version of the telephone game except in this case junk research keeps getting altered to meet the political desires of the new audience.

Edited by spanky123, 12 July 2019 - 02:32 PM.

[Mike K.]

Good work, spanky.

[todd]

Was at Peppers today asked me paper or plastic went with the plastic here are the claims made on the bag.....

[spanky123]

Good work, spanky.

 

Also in the over the top category, Helps told the NP yesterday that plastic bags would "choke our landfills for hundreds of years". https://nationalpost...c-bag-ban-court.

 

Another questionable use of the facts by City staff comes from the claim that 3.5% of waste (page 4) at Hartland was plastic film. https://pub-victoria...documentid=1492 . If you check the actual source it states 3.5% of plastic film packaging (page 6). https://www.crd.bc.c...vrsn=baab36ca_4

[rmpeers]

One question is, could CoV have found a way to discourage the use of single-use plastic bags without wasting so much money and resources? They almost certainly could have and I'm sure most people would have been fine with it.

It's the bad decisions, ignoring advice, the Trump-esque arrogance (with a chaser of Trump-esque hyperbole) that's most upsetting.

It's the attitude that "we know best" (spoiler alert: they don't) and the complete disregard for the folks footing the bill for everything that upsets people again and again.

[Cassidy]

The thing is that the B.C. Government has a Ministry of Environment and Climate Change that consists of hundreds is not thousands of employees ... many of them advanced experts in all aspects of the subject matter.

These are the folks who should be making environmental policy for all the residents of the Province of B.C. (including Victoria) ... not Helps and her bunch of agenda laden wannabe's in Council. 

 

When "pseudo-experts" start wandering way out of their lane and try to pass themselves off as real experts - that's when the trouble starts, as it has here with plastic bags.

[Mike K.]

Council is now onto its next project, mandating that private rental developments contain 20% below-market units. I have yet to hear of an industry expert who supports this agenda.