98 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

SI2020 was originally called Victoria 2020 and it is a website that spun out of the Victoria 2020 conference held several years ago. It is financed by the development community, I believe (?)

[mat]

SI2020 was originally called Victoria 2020 and it is a website that spun out of the Victoria 2020 conference held several years ago. It is financed by the development community, I believe (?)

They are not very open on their 'about' page - some interesting links and articles on the site though

[Caramia]

SI2020 was originally called Victoria 2020 and it is a website that spun out of the Victoria 2020 conference held several years ago. It is financed by the development community, I believe (?)

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Downtown Victoria 2020 conference. No one knows why the individual who started South Island reserved the webpage "Victoria2020" unless it was to falsely appropriate the momentum built by the DV2020 group.

DV2020 is still active, but following its mandate to "complete rather than compete" with other organizations, has instead been focusing its efforts on lending support to non-profits, or to other groups who are working towards a better downtown.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Caramia is right -- victoria2020 (now renamed, but still using the former domain name) has nothing to do with "Downtown Victoria 2020."

It's hard to find out who writes the entries. The name is registered, course. See this "who-is" page:

Registrant: HarbouWerks Strategies
532 Herald St
Victoria, BC V8W 1S6 CA
Domain name: VICTORIA2020.COM
Administrative Contact: Davies, Dave byronpostle@shaw.ca
532 Herald St
Victoria, BC V8W 1S6 CA
250-382-4332
Technical Contact: Morley, Steve
domainreg@islandnet.com
1412 Quadra Street
Victoria, BC V8W 2L1 CA
+1.8003313055 Fax: +1.2503836698

Back to issues around what's in the report: I have to repeat that what I heard was second-hand, but it came from credible sources. And if I heard it, then other people heard it, which means that for reasons of transparency, the report should be released now.

And we (Victoria residents) paid for it. Let's see the results.

[groundlevel]

this is really not such hot stuff.

community associations receive - what? - 50 cents per resident (?) to conduct community forums, publish newsletters and communicate with residents (hey everybody, VIHA has decided a needle exchange is coming to our neighbourhood, right next to the elementary school -- we will facilitate a meeting so you can talk about it.)

the association can't stop unwanted social services popping up in neighbourhoods or put a halt to development -- they can just pass on the information to the city from the meeting -- ie the neighbours arent pleased to host junkies and tweakers or the neighbours don't want their views compromised or whatever.

mayor and council make decisions. or staff make them for them. community associations are powerless to effect change -- all they can do is argue with staff and argue with council on behalf of the expressed wishes of their neighbours.

You want to join or take over a neighbourhood or community association? jump in -- it's a bunch of volunteers concerned about the place they live.

[Mike K.]

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Downtown Victoria 2020 conference. No one knows why the individual who started South Island reserved the webpage "Victoria2020" unless it was to falsely appropriate the momentum built by the DV2020 group.

Ah, I see where the confusion originates. I'm thinking of http://dv2020.ca/ which is the site created by the people behind the conference. Whoever runs Victoria2020, it was pretty sneaky of him/her/them to have expropriated the theme of the conference.

the association can't stop unwanted social services popping up in neighbourhoods or put a halt to development -- they can just pass on the information to the city from the meeting -- ie the neighbours arent pleased to host junkies and tweakers or the neighbours don't want their views compromised or whatever.

mayor and council make decisions. or staff make them for them. community associations are powerless to effect change -- all they can do is argue with staff and argue with council on behalf of the expressed wishes of their neighbours.

You want to join or take over a neighbourhood or community association? jump in -- it's a bunch of volunteers concerned about the place they live.

You just described the mandate of these associations but the exact opposite is happening hence the commissioning of the Cuff Report.

[jklymak]

The problem w/ the power that CAs have, in my opinion, is that the city takes consulting with them as being the same as consulting with the "community". So if you don't belong to the CA (and don't follow VV) you don't hear about projects until the public council meeting, at which point it is usually a done deal. Furthermore the CAs only represent locals, so citizens of the city at large do not have the opportunity to participate.

I might be missing part of the process here, but that has been my impression.

[Rob Randall]

^There is some merit in what you say. One Councillor said to me Council makes decisions for the benefit of future residents as well, which sometimes clashes with the wishes of those that live there today.

[Baro]

That's always been my feeling about CA's too and I'm IN one. Way too much power and a real protectionist attitude about "their" neighbourhoods. They'll hem and haw and nit-pick over the styles and materials of a new house, imposing their tastes over everyone else in the neighbourhood and they actually have the power to make life very difficult for people. Couple that with way less oversight and accountability and way more drama and vested interests and it's a recipe for ridiculousness. The CA's job should be to work towards improving their neighbourhoods as part of the city as a whole, rather than simply pushing the interests of who ever the current entrenched vocal residents are.

[Caramia]

Our Neighbourhood Association has had the same group of "volunteers" in power for almost two decades. There is no avenue to just jump in. If you do, you end up sidelined until you realise your time is being wasted and walk away. City Council is more open to input and easier to talk to than they are. If they are getting tax dollars there should be a limit on how long someone can serve on one of these boards, like every other community board - the APC, Council, the Police Board, etc etc etc. Currently we have secondary and even tertiary community groups springing up in neighbourhoods, often with adversarial feelings towards the "legitimate" community associations. Clearly something is broken.

[jklymak]

I don't think there is anything wrong with a CA, even if they are rabidly conservative and reactionary. However, they should a) demonstrate that they represent a high proportion of locals, and/or b) not be the only avenue of public consultation.

In this day and age of the internet, folks should be able to hear about and comment on upcoming proposals w/o having to go through the CA. The role of a representative CA would be to argue effectively and cohesively for a large number of residents.

BTW, I'm not trying to imply that any individual CA is a poor one. I keep meaning to send the DVRA my check, except I need to find my check book, and checks are so last century.

[amor de cosmos]

How many people usually run a community association?

[groundlevel]

What power do you imagine the community associations have?

They cannot decide to torpedo a development. They cannot veto a proposed shelter or needle exchange.

They do not have power. Period.

Council and council listen to them (more or less politely) and then staff and council do what they feel is best for the neighbourhood and the city as a whole.

CAs call meetings around an issue of interest and then they FACILITATE it. They pass on meeting notes to staff and council.

I know the community association that Caramia is talking about -- that would be Rockland, right? and if you would like to stage a coup I'd be happy to tell you how to do it. First check how many board members are allowed and if you can nominate from the floor at the Annual General Meeting. Then go to the AGM with a group of interested neighbours and nominate members from the floor. Vote them in. Now you have a board of directors which is responsive to -- well, whatever.

You're going to find that you have a lot less time because you and your neighbours are -- setting up all candidate meetings, facilitating safety meetings and land use meetings, hosting the annual Neighbourhood Fair, writing and editing your local neighbourhood rag and trying to accomodate the local loonies and their fun ideas.

The next person to say that CAs have power -- please be specific -- power to do what? How has a particular CA wielded what power?

I've noticed that at least two contributors to VV forums who are very involved in their respective community associations are also candidates for city councillor. Which makes sense -- go where you can make changes not where you are essentially powerless.

[jklymak]

What power do you imagine the community associations have?

As I said above - the council considers running a development by the CA the same as consulting with the community. In my book that is a fair bit of power, because full public input is only asked for after the decisions have been made.

Again, I'm not upset with the CAs. I just do not think they should be the only conduit for initial discussion of city plans...

[Caramia]

Many of our members are involved in their various community associations, these criticisms come at least partially from the inside. I wonder which community association you have been part of that "has no power" - I've seen good projects fail, be reduced to mediocrity, or be delayed for years due to the activism of the community association. Rental housing opportunities have been lost, thousands of dollars have been added to the purchase price of units through delays and extra costs, projects often go ahead or fail based on the relationship of the developer to the community association board. We have neighbourhood association representatives demanding certainty that plans crafted 10 or even more years ago will be followed to the letter, and we have boundary lines on a map that increasingly mean less and less about the sense of identity of those who reside on one or the other side of them. Furthermore, our city council is elected out of the neighbourhoods. As evidence - just look to how many of the all-candidates meetings are hosted by the neighbourhood associations. There is plenty of power there.

Personally - I have zero interest in "staging a coup." My agenda shouldn't be any more sacred than anyone else's. I'd be much more interested in having a general feeling of accountability and approachability due to good a governance model. I don't see any reason why we should be afraid to look at our current governance model and have an objective observer make recommendations. If the consultant has looked at our system and if it is great, or if he found that the community associations have no real pull in this town, then fair enough. Often things look broken and corrupt from the outside, while in the inside there are good people doing their best. I've seen that happen in this City, and I don't claim to be immune. If that's the way it is, let's see the report and everyone can pat themselves on the back. If he's found that we can improve in some areas, then we should welcome that too.

Speaking of things looking broken and corrupt from the outside, while on the inside there are good people doing their best - The City is doing a Neighbourhood Planning Review - which was delayed by the project lead becoming seriously ill but is now back on track. That review may be the City's answer to the Cuff report, which would mean that it wasn't buried so much as that the response is a rewrite of the interface. Considering that the City's ability to increase the effectiveness of their interface with neighbourhood associations, is completely dependent on those associations cooperation, it may simply be that if the report is incendiary in nature, making the report public would not further the goal of the City to make things functional.

[groundlevel]

I've seen good projects fail, been reduced to mediocrity or be delayed for years due to the activism of the community association. . . projects often go ahead or fail based on the relationship of the developer to the community association board . . . Caramia's comments as expressed above.

"The activism of the community association has caused good plans to fail, change or be delayed."
I am not on a land use committee but I have attended them so here goes:

The developer goes to the city with plans. The city tells the developer to consult with the neighbourhood through the land use committee of the CA. The landuse committee and the developer must notify the immediate neighbours. The developer brings the plans to the Landuse Committee meeting. The Landuse Committee is composed of volunteers -- CA directors, CA members and people interested in land use decisions who are not members of the community association. Neighbours and anyone else interested in attending the meeting join in a discussion after the developer has pitched the plan. The land use chair makes notes of the discussion and sends them to the city. Council hears recommendations from city staff, takes the landuse report into consideration and makes the decision to okay or deepsix or send back for revision.
The CA,or more accurately the land use committee, has no power. The decision-making power rests with City Council.

Power is the ability to make the decision.

Influence is something else altogether.

The Chamber of Commerce has influence.

Community Associations have influence.

Vancouver Island Health Authority has influence.

These and many other bodies have the power to influence members of council to vote for or against civic proposals and projects.

The single most influential body is City Staff, especially the city manager and department heads.

"Plans often go ahead or fail based on the relationship of the developer to the community association board"
It is a serious thing to say that it is not the merit of the project being considered but something else. What would be the something else?

[Baro]

One needs only look at the history of the Mount St. Angela project to see where a perfectly suitable project of merit was demonized by CA groups and ultimately struck down.

[mat]

Fascinating discussion - and obviously allot of debate with opinions on all sides. There appears to be more questions than answers, maybe some members can offer input.

If there was no perceived problem with C/A's influence on City Council why commission a study in the first place?

Was this study commissioned by council due to citizen complaints, developers, one or more C/A's, city managers or a combination?

Would this include groups like Friends of Beacon Hill Park? How many C/A's are there?

The more I dig into this the more convoluted it becomes - the report would be welcome not only for a result, but who was asked to respond, why they were selected, and if, simply by having the questionnaire go out, C/A's adjusted their practices.

[G-Man]

One needs only look at the history of the Mount St. Angela project to see where a perfectly suitable project of merit was demonized by CA groups and ultimately struck down.

and Crystal View, The Landmark, Castana, Shamrock Motel proposal, The original Reef I could keep going...

[amor de cosmos]

CAs have probably "strangled at birth" upgrades to the Bellevile ferry terminal, development of Wharf St, Ogden Pt & Centennial Square also. Taken together, all those things would be a huge upgrade to our tourist industry in general, possibly the local green-tech industry and also keep our construction industry going for years to come.