98 replies to this topic

[Caramia]

Are you trying to say that the community association volunteers never editorialize, only objectively sit back and collect community input, and never attempt to use their position to manufacture dissent?

Because anyone who has been in this City for long enough knows full well that isn't true.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Groundlevel, I don't find your distinction between power and influence useful at all.

They [CAs] do not have power. Period.

(...)

Power is the ability to make the decision.

Influence is something else altogether.

Among other things, being powerful means to be in possession of controlling influence. (Operative word: controlling.) The question is, to what extent do groups control through influence, and if that isn't power, what is?

The question then becomes, what are the protocols for exerting controlling influence? Are they of benefit, or are they harmful?

mat's question ("If there was no perceived problem with C/A's influence on City Council why commission a study in the first place?") needs answering, imo.

Caramia, your points in post #35 are excellent. When you write...:

Considering that the City's ability to increase the effectiveness of their interface with neighbourhood associations, is completely dependent on those associations cooperation, it may simply be that if the report is incendiary in nature, making the report public would not further the goal of the City to make things functional.

...is that the happy-glasses putting things into good focus, or do you think that's what might be going on? It's an interesting thought, at any rate...

[Sue Woods]

Among other things, being powerful means to be in possession of controlling influence. (Operative word: controlling.) The question is, to what extent do groups control through influence, and if that isn't power, what is?

Interesting. Today I received an email invitation to an all candidates meeting run by a specific Community Assoc.

The attached questionaire (to get my position on issues prior to the meeting) is sooooo glaringly slanted that unless I am prepared to answer in a certain way there would be no benefit for me to attend. So I am not going to answer the questions - and am not going to show up. I will knock on doors instead.

I am running for council as a independent thinker - not a desperate candiate who is willing to commit to championing the adjenda of any one CA.

The first person who can name the CA will get their name entered into a draw for a free toaster oven.: -)

[http]

The first person who can name the CA will get their name entered into a draw for a free toaster oven.: -)

James Bay Neighbourhood Association.

[groundlevel]

okay, I think I'm beginning to understand why community associations are being . . . um . . . demonized.

but I AM confused, so let me work this out.

Community Associations in Victoria are James Bay Community Association, Downtown Residents Association, Fairfield Community Association, Fernwood Community Association, Oaklands Community Association, Rockland Neighbourhood Association, North Park Neighbourhood Association, Neighbourhood Action Group, North Jubilee Neighbourhood Association, South Jubilee Neighbourhood Association, Vic West Community Association, Burnside Gorge Community Association (and Hillside-Quadra Advisory Group and Fernwood Neighbourhood Resource Group which are boards that run community centres -- like the Fairfield Community Association and the Oaklands Community Association and the Burnside-Gorge Community Association) oh -- and James Bay has 2 more community associations -- one that reps the community school and one that reps the Community Place or something?? And the Vic West community centre is run by the YMCA. Also Harris Green neighbourhood has no community association -- maybe its counted as downtown? oh God, there's Gonzales too -- i don't know about Gonzales.

I am SO impressed at myself that I know all this!! (I had to visit a lot of community associations when I was carting around a Big Idea).

So, directors of these associations are -- what? 5 to 15 people? and the membership is maybe -- 200 for a biggie (Fairfield, maybe) and 60 for smallfry (a Jubilee).(wild unsubstantiated guess re numbers - no solid data whatsoever)

oh -- except for Oaklands where every single resident of the neighbourhood is counted as a member of the community association. So their membership is in the thousands.

So -- all of these people by dint of belonging to a community association:
think the same way
rise up as one, shout out their one opinion, overpower city council and force each council member to vote down perfectly beautiful developments.

If citizens yell really loud do they get their own way? or do they have to be part of an organized group?

Or Maybe!
Citizens have opinions.
They try to influence council.
Council makes the decision.
Citizens live with it.

[martini]

^
What if a CA director was a city councilor?

[mat]

^
What if a CA director was a city councilor?

thanks martini - my point (and others) exactly. Councillor or police chief, or city contractor, or working within city hall as, say a planning officer...the list goes on. This gets more and more into accountability.

[jklymak]

Or Maybe!
Citizens have opinions.
They try to influence council.
Council makes the decision.
Citizens live with it.

Absolutely. Nothing wrong with that, though some here may disagree. However, what is wrong is if certain citizens are made part of the official process unofficially. If everything gets run past the community associations but not the city as a whole, only certain citizens get input into projects. That's would be OK if the CAs were the size of say "Victoria", "Oak Bay" or "East Saanich". I don't think its OK for something the size of "Oaklands" or "Rocklands". The whole city should hear about proposed developments, and if a subcommittee from Rocklands wants their say, then go for it.

Victoria is ridiculously balkanized - with many of the "neighbourhoods" consisting of a couple of stores on a corner or a street.

[Sue Woods]

Jklymak: Victoria is ridiculously balkanized - with many of the "neighbourhoods" consisting of a couple of stores on a corner or a street.

Before I get run out of town - I just need to say that if we are ever going to be able to talk about amalgamation we need to move forward as a whole community -without fear about growth and development.

To add to my previous post (now that Http has won the contest) from how I read the questionaire, if I am NOT prepared to commit to the JBCA that I will help them curb sources of "noise and air pullution related to aircraft, vehicular (especially bus) traffic" to "improve the liveablity of the James Bay environment for residents" I will not only NOT get their vote but I risk becoming public enemy number one.

I am running my candidacy with the understanding that I will not get many votes out of James bay - because I love the Inner Harbour and will work to sustain it as the transportation hub that it is - because I favour the revitalization of the Belleville terminal - because I favour the beautification/revitilzation of the lands behind the Legislature. (But I need to say I am in favour of preserving Cridge Park and the lawn bowilng green.)

[pseudotsuga]

Local Community Assns. for most neighbourhoods seems like a good idea to me.

If I feel my view isn't being represented, I'll have to join the assosiation & convince like minded neighbours to do the same.

Unfortunately, it is easy to let those with the free time or the necessary passion for their own agenda speak for the entire neighbourhood.

Democracy is hard work.

[Sue Woods]

Local Community Assns. for most neighbourhoods seems like a good idea to me. Democracy is hard work.

To clarify, I have never thought that CA's are not a good thing. To suggest there may be too much control by some groups to stop progress/growth does not mean one is anti-neighbourhood or anti-community consultation. There is an in-between place. Thats all I refer to. Cheers Sue

[groundlevel]

re: Martini's question -- what if a Community Association Director was a city councillor?

If you were a director of a Community Association, ran for office and were elected you would resign as a board member of the Community Association.

of course, there are Executive Directors of Community Centres who run for office and are elected.

But they cant sit on the Community Association board as a director if the Community Association runs the Community Centre.

It's the same relationship with any Executive Director and their board. The board hires and fires the ED. The ED is staff, the board is boss.

[Baro]

It's a matter of who's represented and attitude.

Only a tiny percentage of a neighbourhood is even aware of their CA's let alone involved. It's hard enough for city hall to even claim a true mandate with our dismal voter turnout, yet CA's with a fraction of that always speak in the royal we as if they were the voice of the hive-mind that is their neighbourhood.

The level of hate found in most of these groups for even the most modest of projects or reputable developers is shocking. And the hate is rarely targeted at just the project on the table, but usually extends on a personal level to all involved. A culture of revenge and punishment exists in many CA's, where projects are fought on the grounds of totally unrelated history or persons involved, rather than the merits of the project. Many of our CA's have become little more than a highschool clique, with all the drama and exclusionary social-politics that go along with it. The democratic process won't fix this system as 90% of people don't care about it, which raises the question: if so few people care or are involved in it, why does it have the power it does?

[ted - 3 - dots]

Interesting. Today I received an email invitation to an all candidates meeting run by a specific Community Assoc.

The attached questionaire (to get my position on issues prior to the meeting) is sooooo glaringly slanted that unless I am prepared to answer in a certain way there would be no benefit for me to attend. So I am not going to answer the questions - and am not going to show up. I will knock on doors instead.

I am running for council as a independent thinker - not a desperate candiate who is willing to commit to championing the adjenda of any one CA.

The first person who can name the CA will get their name entered into a draw for a free toaster oven.: -)

--- uhmmmm ------

Can I guess that it's Ferwood ...? ( NRG ) ....?

ted...

[Sue Woods]

--- uhmmmm ------

Can I guess that it's Ferwood ...? ( NRG ) ....?

ted...

Sorry. But HTTP has already won the toaster oven! (10 posts back)

[jklymak]

The democratic process won't fix this system as 90% of people don't care about it, which raises the question: if so few people care or are involved in it, why does it have the power it does?

Worse, as you point out, I bet that 85% don't know about the CAs. If they are going to have an official role, they should have a charter and an official public election. If not, then they are free to lobby as a group, but City Hall shouldn't run everything past them rather than the public as a whole.

[Baro]

Exactly, unless they can prove they have a mandate from the community they should be treated with no more official voice or influence then 11 private citizens. Their neighbourhood plans are even more of a joke, I could get even more people together than originally wrote my neighbourhood plan and write my own. Could I demand the city follow it and pull it out 10-15 years later as hard evidence for how my neighbours have all agreed to develop the neighbourhood?

[jklymak]

Wha? The Neighbourhood plans are written by the CA's? You've got to be kidding... The downtown one certainly wasn't, was it? If so, they must have aastra making their photoshops as the brochure sure was pretty!

[Sue Woods]

The level of hate found in most of these groups for even the most modest of projects or reputable developers is shocking. And the hate is rarely targeted at just the project on the table, but usually extends on a personal level to all involved.

You know if I could take back everything I've said about CA's and just leave it to this post I would - because Bara has expressed exactly my area of reference/concern.

As the publisher of a community mag I can tell you that I receive, and happily print, many submissions from neighbourhood minded people that are proacative, thoughtful and benefit/educate the community. There are others who I will never print because they are agressive, destructive, and seem more based on bad personal temperment then on the issue of the development/revitilization at hand.

Just seems like a lot of fences have been built over the years - with closed adjendas of 'some' organizations being detrimental to progress, new ideas, new spaces.

Sue

[Baro]

The downtown CA is probably the only CA I respect. Rob has really done his best to make that CA into something open that serves the neighbourhood's interests. It still doesn't have enough active involved members to claim a true mandate (as far as I know) but at least in attitude it's doing it right. I hope Rob can make it into council as we need the spirit he brought to the DRA in city hall.

(ps, it's Baro not Bara, that's someone else entirely )