2177 replies to this topic

[LeedsUsWhere?]

The point is simple

The developers are manipulative and utulizing fear mongering while orchestrating a publicity stunt in a crass attempt to obtain a casino license. You are spinning and accusing opposing interests of utilizing the exact same tactics being employed by the developers.

No one else, but the developers are manipulating and fear mongering while performing a disservice to the community, as you originally alleged.

Ben is an oppossing politician, far removed from the play, who has simply made some remotely accurate observations. This is hardly " not being forthcoming."

Pretending to want to help First Nations by blowing up their heritage and establishing casinos while publicly calling for funds to protect native heritage is "not being forthcoming." And is simply another crass, obnoxious and manipulative ploy that has come to be the calling card of the BM trio, their politicians and their apologists. (some of whom you may be familiar with)

[Mike K.]

Great, so how does this tie into my comments about the Savory Road Connector? That is, afterall, what I was originally talking about.

Did you even read what I wrote? The road and the cave are two seperate issues. True, the alliance is involved in both, but my posts refer to one of them.

It's clear there's miscommunication here.

[aastra]

A lot of that stuff is indeed disturbing...if it's true.

>parcels of Crown Land on Spaet Mountain were reportedly transferred to Western Forest Products as part of a 'land swap'...

Reportedly?

former NHL hockey players Russ and Geoff Courtnell have allegedly pulled out of Bear Mountain because of concern over the project's direction

Allegedly?

>the Connector may be part of a larger provincial plan to solve the Malahat transportation woes by cutting a road through the Highlands

May be?

>in November 2006, the BC Archeology Branch granted the developer permission to destroy a sacred cave near the summit "in order to protect it"

I'm cynical enough to believe a charge like this, but some substantiation is definitely required.

>on November 2006, Bear Mountain project manager Les Bjola, Barrie's right-hand man, instigated a hundred construction workers, threatened with the loss of employment, into a confrontation with a small group of Aboriginals protecting the cave

Source?

>Justine Bratten, director of the BC Archeology Branch, reportedly told a member of the Tsartlip nation that Aboriginals have no claim to Spaet Mountain because their rights were extinguished...

Reportedly?

[exLangfordian]

What's next? Carved face sculptures of Stew, Len, and Les somewhere out of the rock on Bear Mountain. They could rename it Mt. Flushmore in honor of the privatised sewage and the American way of doing business....

[VicHockeyFan]

[quote name='aastra']A lot of that stuff is indeed disturbing...if it's true.

[quote]>parcels of Crown Land on Spaet Mountain were reportedly transferred to Western Forest Products as part of a 'land swap'...[/quote]

Reportedly?

[quote:b163d]former NHL hockey players Russ and Geoff Courtnell have allegedly pulled out of Bear Mountain because of concern over the project's direction[/quote]

Allegedly?

[quote]>the Connector may be part of a larger provincial plan to solve the Malahat transportation woes by cutting a road through the Highlands
[/quote]

May be?

[quote]>in November 2006, the BC Archeology Branch granted the developer permission to destroy a sacred cave near the summit "in order to protect it"[/quote]

I'm cynical enough to believe a charge like this, but some substantiation is definitely required.

[quote]>on November 2006, Bear Mountain project manager Les Bjola, Barrie's right-hand man, instigated a hundred construction workers, threatened with the loss of employment, into a confrontation with a small group of Aboriginals protecting the cave[/quote]

Source?

[quote]>Justine Bratten, director of the BC Archeology Branch, reportedly told a member of the Tsartlip nation that Aboriginals have no claim to Spaet Mountain because their rights were extinguished...[/quote]

Reportedly?[/quote:b163d]

I agree Astra, that's shoddy reporting.

Anyway, can we have Texas Holdem' at that casino?

[captain highliner]

Sorry in advance for drifting dangerously far from the topic at hand, which is Bear Mountain. I feel that this is related, though, even the parts about Vibrant Victoria's evil nemesis, Osama Ben Isitt.

I'm wondering whether people on this forum generally oppose more suburban sprawl and the transportation and land use policies that encourage it. I was under the impression that most of us do.

If that's what Vibrant Victoria is partially about, then I wonder what we should do about this as a semi-organized group. So far, people from this forum have participated in downtown planning, advocated for specific new developments and the like. I wonder whether there's any interest in trying to build a broader coalition that includes the anti-sprawl part of the equation.

IMHO, if you want to build a sustainable city you can't just cheerlead every new highrise downtown without also trying to make links with the ALR protection people, transportation alternatives advocates, etc. These are people who have in the past been more closely associated with the NIMBY camp, but this doesn't have to always be the case. It's a question of political organization. If you don't make the effort to dialogue with these people and make the connection between urban densification and suburban containment, there's no chance they'll ever lend support to what we stand for.

The reality is that opposition to Bear Mountain exists, and the only people who are activly trying to tap into it are the natives, Ben and this SEA group (which has a network behind it that extends far beyond Ben Isitt).

Having some experience in political organizing, I figure that there's huge potential to mobilize support for the principles of progressive urbanism in some non-traditional areas by organizing opposition to Bear Mountain expansion. It just takes effort and patience in dealing with people who you disagree with.

Maybe some of us could get over our visceral hate for anything even tangentially related to Ben Isitt. Sure, he's got some goofy ideas. But he also has access to a huge network of people who actually will show up for meetings and don't mind missing Grey's Anatomy to participate in activism. And they're not all flakes either. Perhaps it's worth asking yourselves how come this guy managed to gain the VCE nomination against the wishes of the party brass, and then came within 5-10% of the votes needed to be mayor. Is it possible to reach these people and get them to see our point of view?

[G-Man]

Well said but I would like to add a couple of things.

First I don't think you need Ben Isitt and his friends to fight Bear Mountain or sprawl in general. I think that this group is organized enough that if it wanted to do something then with time it could. I guess you can always take on allies for a particular fight but I think that the greater the distance between us and any politician the better

Second, I think that we have done a lot in this vein. We DON'T just stand up at council meetings and cheerlead highrises. Many of us have taken part in the Downtown Workshop Series at which I know many people focused on aspects of transportation for example. Also many of us have written letters to the editor that were strictly about the problems of building a city by suburbanization. So I would say that our efforts in aiding downtown development have been equal to our criticism of the negative effects of cutting down forests to build SFDs.

I agree that more effort could be put into this. I have heard Councillor Fortin ask for this group's help at a Council meeting with regards to fighting the expansion of the the Urban Containment Boundary. I personally think this is the place for it because we can hardly show up at a Langford Council meeting and do it at least if you dont want to get beatin

The best bet would be to write the CRD and say why the UCB should be maintained and perhaps strengthened or perhaps even participate in one of their committee meetings on the matter.

Anyways I think you are right that something has got to be done and that there may be some ideas you have for soft participation, like letters, emails that sort of thing that can get the ball rolling who knows what people may come up with. Anyways this is a good topic and I am glad you brought it up. Perhaps you would like to start another thread on the subject in the politics thread?

[Ms. B. Havin]

Well said, G-man.

Captain, oh my captain... (that's a quote from something else, but never mind...): speaking for myself, I'm not calling Ben Isitt any kinda Osama ben Isitt (altho' it's a clever moniker). I do think, though, that he could stand to ben-e-fit from a couple of reality checks -- I say this based strictly on what I have observed at public hearings and candidates' meetings. I'm not sure that the words "I don't know" or the even more risky "I haven't got a clue" are part of his vocabulary. As it happens, I tend to think that these are pretty important parts of any thinking person's vocab, which is why I'm wondering why they're so absent from Mr. Isitt's.

I'm thrilled that he's talking about "urban densification" as a way to counteract urban sprawl, but I also can't help remembering his performance at public hearings where he sided with Mr. Alexander, the lawyer, to block The Falls. In that display we had the perfect expression of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" ideology, which is the most f*xkered way to go forward there is.

As G-man said, some of the people here have done a lot more to move things forward than the usual suspects have. What's the refrain from that pop song?, "We don't need another hero"??

[gumgum]

There should be an urban containment thread.
Someone who knows some things about it should start one.

[captain highliner]

I agree with the sentiment that keeping a healthy distance from politicians is a good thing. The problem is what happens when a politician has already associated himself with a particular issue.

It was interesting how quickly the idea of opposing the expansion of Bear Mountain turned into a discussion of Ben Isitt. I wasn't the one who brought him up initially and I'm definately not saying that forming a group with Ben Isitt as supreme leader is the way foreward on this issue. I just wanted to point out that despite being written off by many on this site, he clearly knows a thing or two about organizing.

I would like to remind people not to be too content to rest on the laurels of a few past successes. Indeed, if we were honest with ourselves we would admit that the role played by this and other urban issues webforums in local government decision making to date has been relatively minor. Vibrant Victoria is not the first grassroots issues based network to emerge under the sun. The labour, environmental, peace, women's, and antiracist movements all started relatively informally, then became more established and went on to dramatically reshape the world in which we live. These are all object lessons that for substantial change to happen, more is required than purely individual action like writing letters to the editor or to politicians, though these actions do help build the context for change to be possible.

For those who are interested in working with a broad coalition on the Bear mountain issue, I would still encourage them to contact the mailto:seacrd@gmail.com email, with the warning that if they happen to go to a meeting of this group, there's a good chance they'll find themselves in the same room as Ben Isitt.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Does this group have affiliation with the [url=http://www.bcsea.org/:50f27]BC SEA[/url:50f27], which has done soooo much useful work around here?

[Scaper]

I would like to remind people that it was Ben Isitt and his friends that publicly mocked the Vibrant Victoria group at the first Falls public hearing, when we were called a skyscraper fan club. It was here where he very loudly spoke out against the Falls project stating that it was way to dense for downtown. It was after this meeting that a member of this Vibrant Victoria group had a lengthy one on one chat with Ben regarding what we stood for....and challenging him on his stance on density and urban sprawl...that member stated to Ben..."if you want to know this group stands for, and what this group is against...and not just this group but the majority of Victorians that are getting fed up with the lack of city planning...Look at Bear Mountain...you want to speak to the ears of Victorians speak out against that, and support downtown density!!! Funny how three days later Ben wrote a letter to the editor favoring downtown density, and how outraged he was with Bear Mountain......though...his true voice was heard that night...when he vocally trashed the Falls for being too dense and inappropriate for downtown. Yet the Falls being 5.5 : 1 density was right across from the Executive house at 5.35 : 1 built in the mid sixty and not too far away from the Belmont Building built in the 20s sitting at 7.0 : 1 density. On another note... that night Ben spoke out against the lack of effort being put into the Downtown plan...yet Ben himself never went to any of the three downtown planning workshops himself. All I can say is.......I hate wishy washy politicians that wave what ever banner will get them attention.

[G-Man]

Anyways I have started a thread on the UCB in the politics thread.

This is a great discussion to have but not anymore in this thread please. If the UCB does not cover what you wnat to discuss start a seperate thread.

And now back to what is being built at Bear Mountain....

[Mike K.]

AChannel mentioned tonight that the casino proposal for Bear Mountain isn't linked to the preservation of any Native artifacts.

The deal to preserve Native artifacts is an $8 to $10 million plan to help the Natives develop 20 acres in the Highlands and land along hwy 1 near Spencer Rd.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Yesterday's T-C had a profile on Len Barrie, [url=http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/monitor/story.html?id=db180ad5-386c-4340-a132-1d754d227029:5522a]Visionary bear runs into 'sacred' cave[/url:5522a], by Darron Kloster. I actually never thought of the Barrie-bear rhyming association before... The profile is very friendly/ favourable to Barrie, but interesting.

[LJ]

[>former NHL hockey players Russ and Geoff Courtnell have allegedly pulled out of Bear Mountain because of concern over the project's direction


It would be pretty hard for them to "pull out", they never were involved in the Bear Mountain Project.


But I guess when you use weasel words like "allegedly" you could put anyones name in you wanted to lend yourself some importance, even if it is fraudulent.

David Suzuki has allegedly signed on as managing partner in the Bear Mountain Project because he was so impressed with the projects direction and environmental sensitivity.

There - don't we all feel better about it now!!!

[Holden West]

Victoria News:

"A Times Colonist article from July, 2002, adds the names Richard Matvichuk, Chris Osgood and Fred Brathwaite, as well as Barrie’s brother-in-law Kory Gronnestad. The T-C also speculated that brothers Russ and Geoff Courtnall were investors, though that doesn’t appear to be confirmed by any other reports."

[D.L.]

From the Malahat train I can see a white tower crane in the hills south of Mt. Finlayson. This must be Soaring Peaks. It will be very visable from the train.

[Scaper]

I have never taken the train before...I really want to sometime.

[Mike K.]

23-storey tall [url=http://www.vibrantvictoria.ca/development/mcp/soaringpeaks.htm:188c2]Soaring Peaks[/url:188c2] may have been canceled...

The developer, Cove Properties, no longer lists the project on the company's website (coveproperties.ca). Last I heard Soaring Peaks wasn't selling very well, although Bearmountain.ca still lists the project as a 2006 release.