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Victoria Barwatch Program


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#21 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 10:16 AM

I can totally see this being abused by bouncers in this town.

I can't even count the number of times I've seen people tossed from bars/clubs when they weren't making trouble just because the bouncer didn't like them for any reason (or had some prejudice about the way they look/act).
So now if they don't like you or don't like the way you react to getting tossed for no reason they can ruin your night by getting you barred from everywhere else and getting you flagged as a troublemaker?

It's a good idea IN THEORY (as are so many things) but there's just way too many ways it could be abused in my opinion.
I have a really bad feeling about this.

PS: I'm not super paranoid about the privacy aspects of this, but there is some part of the back of my brain that thinks that storing data from your identification every time you go to an establishment is really wrong.


Bouncer licensing is coming this fall. Idiots won't be able to be doorpeople any more. They will have to go through the same type of training and licensing as security guards etc. No criminal records, first aid and safety training etc.

Look, this thing has been running in Vancouver for 5 years, no one is complaining about it there, except the gang members that have to go to Red Robin now, instead of a cool club.

#22 ZGsta

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 10:22 AM

Bouncer licensing is coming this fall. Idiots won't be able to be doorpeople any more. They will have to go through the same type of training and licensing as security guards etc. No criminal records, first aid and safety training etc.


Really? That's definitely good to hear.

#23 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 10:29 AM

Really?


See the third NOTE:

http://www.pssg.gov....urity-guard.pdf

November 1, no more goons in BC.

#24 sebberry

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 11:51 AM

Bouncer licensing is coming this fall. Idiots won't be able to be doorpeople any more. They will have to go through the same type of training and licensing as security guards etc. No criminal records, first aid and safety training etc.


Most of the people hired for those private security companies are big power-tripping dickheads too. They just wear the name of a security firm on their jacket.


Look, this thing has been running in Vancouver for 5 years, no one is complaining about it there, except the gang members that have to go to Red Robin now, instead of a cool club.


The gangsters are still congregating somewhere. And always will. Probably easier to do business in a quieter restaraunt too :)


I never go to the clubs downtown, but I don't like the idea of being photographed every time. Talk about a big-brother tracking system. What are we? Pieces of inventory in a warehouse? Boxes in the post office's sorting system? Surveilance cameras are one thing, but being tracked like a parcel on a FedEx truck is going to far. For me anyway.

What is the potential for health insurance providers digging up your night-time activities and denying you coverage for prescription drugs to treat liver problems?


Good points about the privacy of the data too and where it is stored, who manages the data, etc... Just look at the major breach of privacy of Alberta's electronic health records system.

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#25 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 12:38 PM

What is the potential for health insurance providers digging up your night-time activities and denying you coverage for prescription drugs to treat liver problems?


Zero, unless they can get a search warrant, then prove you were drinking. You are not required to drink an ounce of liquid if you go to a bar.

#26 G-Man

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 12:44 PM

I am more concerned about someone being able to use the data gathered to track habits and whereabouts on specific nights through a lawsuit that requires the company to disclose whether you were there.

Best just to avoid the places on the list.

#27 aastra

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 12:45 PM

VHF, what about this?

Vancouver police are happy with the decrease of violence in bars since the Bar Watch program began in that city in February, said Const. Tim Fanning.

"We'd had a lot of problems with the gangsters around the bars," Fanning said. "This is a way of keeping patrons of the bar and bar staff safe."

In Vancouver, bar owners taking part in the Bar Watch program share the scanned information with each other, he said. The data on a driver's licence include your name, birth date, address, height, weight, eye and hair colour, gender, signature, licence expiry date, licence number and a digital photograph.


http://www2.canada.c...ddbd0df&k=34852

#28 aastra

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 12:51 PM

And what about this comment posted on CBC's website?

The software they allegedly use is by a local company called TreoScope and it's program is EnterSafe.

Part of the service they provide:
"TreoScope EnterSafe enhances the traditional door person, ensuring that they never forget a name or a face, and treat patrons accordingly...Recognizes your VIPs, so you can give them the special welcome and treatment they deserve"


That blurb seems to imply monitoring of spending habits, etc.

#29 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 01:02 PM

VHF, what about this?

http://www2.canada.c...ddbd0df&k=34852


Shitty, misleading reporting.

In Vancouver, bar owners taking part in the Bar Watch program share the scanned information with each other, he said.


Absolutely correct, that's what the system is for, all the data is held in a central database that they all share.

The data on a driver's licence include your name, birth date, address, height, weight, eye and hair colour, gender, signature, licence expiry date, licence number and a digital photograph.


That's interesting, I didn't know that the strip had all that. But it is irrelevant to the story.

In Vancouver, bar owners taking part in the Bar Watch program share the scanned information with each other, he said.


Which is name, birthday and DL expiry date, and licence #. All the stuff that is very clearly indicated to the guy who ID's you at any bar, or restaurant when you order liquor and appear to be underage, the liquor store clerk, the car rental clerk etc. But he also gets a good peak at your home address too, so he can phone his buddy that does B&Es and tell him that you are not at home.

#30 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 01:05 PM

And what about this comment posted on CBC's website?

That blurb seems to imply monitoring of spending habits, etc.


Yup, Treoscope will sell the bar that info. The other way I can see who my VIPs are is have the bartender tell me Jim came in Monday, Friday and Saturday this week and what he spent each day.

Treoscope has no idea what Jim bought, or if he only came in to use the washroom.

#31 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 01:12 PM

What I'm getting at is that Treoscope collects less information than every liquor-primary bar in the province is required to collect now from EVERY patron. Two pieces of ID, one of which must be a DL, BCID or passport. You cannot enter a LP bar unless you can prove, on demand to a liquor inspector or police officer that you are of age. Even if you are in fact 86 years old. It's not just your age, it is also whether you can prove it. Insufficient proof on demand, you are subject to a fine, and so is the bar.



Now, you will say that bars do not "collect" the information, but you expose it to us willingly now, it could be collected easily, it might require some memory training, but it could be done.

Treoscope takes a picture of your face, all our security cameras track your every movement except inside the washrooms and every interaction with other patrons etc. for as much as 6 months! In the daytime when the music is not too loud, let me tell you, it has your conversations on it too, if you are close enough to a camera.

And now you will say that's too much, but all the bars and most restaurants use cameras with sound to listen in on staff after hours to prevent theft etc. Staff are made aware of it when hired.

#32 G-Man

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 01:35 PM

Still not sold on this info sitting with the private company, that truly is the problem. The rest is just what we are already dealing with and I have no issue.

#33 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 01:48 PM

Still not sold on this info sitting with the private company, that truly is the problem. The rest is just what we are already dealing with and I have no issue.


Your bank has that info, your credit card companies, your care rental co. your travel agent, hotel, dentist and doctor (and yes, your doctor is a private company) yada yada yada. Why can't this private company have the info?

#34 aastra

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 02:08 PM

The rest is just what we are already dealing with and I have no issue.


This is the part I don't understand. Showing your driver's license upon entry is quite a bit different from having your driver's license picture, license number, license expiration date, height, eye colour, hair colour, etc. logged in somebody's database.

This seems like a great mechanism for facilitating identify theft.

#35 G-Man

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 02:08 PM

In all those other instances you mention I am providing that information to them for "MY" perceived benefit based on a decision I have made.

In this case, I would be providing that information with no benefit to myself. It is therefore not a fair or rational thing for me to provide the information or that compnay to take it from me. There is no quid pro quo.

#36 G-Man

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 02:15 PM

Actually I have changed my mind we should actually expand the use of this technology to all buildings public and private.

I mean if we had to swipe your card at banks for a security guard it may stop bank robbers and it would certainly stop them from robbing two banks in the same day.

It would be great for stopping shop lifting at your local grocery or clothing stores.

Think of the benefit for public order if you had to swipe your card before having your peaceful protest on the legislature grounds.

#37 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 02:25 PM

This is the part I don't understand. Showing your driver's license upon entry is quite a bit different from having your driver's license picture, license number, license expiration date, height, eye colour, hair colour, etc. logged in somebody's database.

This seems like a great mechanism for facilitating identify theft.


For ****s sake, read a bit. It doesn't take all that info.

#38 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 02:49 PM

In all those other instances you mention I am providing that information to them for "MY" perceived benefit based on a decision I have made.

In this case, I would be providing that information with no benefit to myself. It is therefore not a fair or rational thing for me to provide the information or that compnay to take it from me. There is no quid pro quo.


YOU make the decision to enter the bar that is trying to protect you from being in the company of known gang members that may have "open" contracts on them. When you have an open contract on you, everyone is free to try to kill you and collect the money from the gang that issued the order. I don't want to dance in front of him right at the instant the bullet heads towards him.

You know how the police issued the warning not to be near those brothers in Vancouver? Because they had open contracts on them...

...so, if you see no benefit, then go to Hush or V-Lounge and take your chances. Red Scorpion gang members are already here.

#39 Nparker

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 03:03 PM

Makes me glad I am too "over the hill" to be part of club culture anymore. Heck, I still think club culture should be about Culture Club.:D

#40 sebberry

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 03:04 PM

Treoscope takes a picture of your face, all our security cameras track your every movement except inside the washrooms and every interaction with other patrons etc. for as much as 6 months! In the daytime when the music is not too loud, let me tell you, it has your conversations on it too, if you are close enough to a camera.


You do realize that it is illegal to record a conversation between two people without their consent, right? While your staff might be aware of their conversations being recorded, patrons aren't.

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