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Victoria Barwatch Program


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#41 sebberry

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 03:06 PM

[FONT=Century Gothic][SIZE=3]Makes me glad I am too "over the hill" to be part of club culture anymore.


Me too, and I'm only 25. Not once have I ever set foot in a night club.

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#42 sebberry

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 03:09 PM

YOU make the decision to enter the bar that is trying to protect you from being in the company of known gang members that may have "open" contracts on them. When you have an open contract on you, everyone is free to try to kill you and collect the money from the gang that issued the order. I don't want to dance in front of him right at the instant the bullet heads towards him.

You know how the police issued the warning not to be near those brothers in Vancouver? Because they had open contracts on them...

...so, if you see no benefit, then go to Hush or V-Lounge and take your chances. Red Scorpion gang members are already here.


I understand the reasoning behind the system and while it will make the nightclubs "safer", as you said it earlier the gangsters will be hanging out at Red Robin and all it'll take is one drive-by shooting there where someone's kid who is celebrating his 10th birthday with his family catches the bullet.

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#43 G-Man

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 03:22 PM

YOU make the decision to enter the bar that is trying to protect you from being in the company of known gang members that may have "open" contracts on them. When you have an open contract on you, everyone is free to try to kill you and collect the money from the gang that issued the order. I don't want to dance in front of him right at the instant the bullet heads towards him.

You know how the police issued the warning not to be near those brothers in Vancouver? Because they had open contracts on them...

...so, if you see no benefit, then go to Hush or V-Lounge and take your chances. Red Scorpion gang members are already here.


And that is why I have in the past accepted bar staff looking at my id and have willingly handed over a credit card to pay for drinks. I decided that it was an acceptable trade between myself and the establishment.

But I reiterate what does this company who has no requirements to delete their databases to protect regular people, give me in return for the data from my driver's liscense (yes the bar workers don't get to see it but sure as hell the company can read all the info) a picture of myself and the ability to log my visits to all the bars in their system. Nothing.

What should be happening is a liscening of their software to a public agency which has legislated deletion timelines and a clear complaint process.

#44 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 03:45 PM

You do realize that it is illegal to record a conversation between two people without their consent, right? While your staff might be aware of their conversations being recorded, patrons aren't.


There is signage, that's all that is required.

#45 sebberry

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 04:15 PM

There is signage, that's all that is required.


Now if the wait staff actually TOLD patrons that their conversations were being recorded, do you think people would get a little uneasy feeing?

While I consider myself to be a fairly observant person, I don't normally search the building for little disclaimers that my conversations are being recorded.

Yet another reason why I am glad I have no interest in visiting such establishments.

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#46 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 04:32 PM

Now if the wait staff actually TOLD patrons that their conversations were being recorded, do you think people would get a little uneasy feeing?

While I consider myself to be a fairly observant person, I don't normally search the building for little disclaimers that my conversations are being recorded.

Yet another reason why I am glad I have no interest in visiting such establishments.


It's a 2' sign you can't miss as you enter. Look, every digital security system you buy now comes with sound, they are everywhere. It's a standard feature. If I invite you to my home for a talk, there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, and that counts as video and audio. In a public place, there is not. There is no difference between taking a picture/video or taking an audio recording. It is much different than, say, a phone call.

#47 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 04:36 PM

The press release can be viewed here:

http://oipc.bc.ca/ne...OrderP09-01.pdf

The full order can be viewed here:

http://oipc.bc.ca/PI...OrderP09-01.pdf

#48 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 05:39 PM

News article:

http://www.google.co...cvTvoCbn5Fuf-gQ

I can see a work-around for this. Indeed, I see no reason why folks who do not cause trouble must have their info retained for two years.

Having said that, if you rent a car, do they destroy your info after you return it and settle up the bill? A car-rental firm takes much more info from you than TreoScope.

#49 mat

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 07:27 PM

It frankly does not matter if it's the barwatch program, facebook, banks, or police officer notes - how long personal records are held by government and private business, and how they might be disseminated and used is the issue.

Coast Capital admitted today something like 400 records of personal, household and business insurance claims were 'accidently' released, with names, addresses and the costs/details of the claim - but according to a Coast Capital spokesman, everything is OK as SIN numbers were not on the files. I nearly puked over that statement.

The barwatch program is a decent idea - there should be a technical communication medium that registers problem patrons among member bars, pubs, nightclubs and the police. Any such system should also have robust oversight from an independent authority.

note on that. Jennifer Stoddard, The Federal Privacy Commissioner has given Facebook 30 days to comply with Canadian privacy laws. I am very surprised, and extremely glad, this issue has been brought forward by Canada. Normally we, like the rest of the world, wait for Europe to wade in and make judgements. Nice to see Canada taking this on for a change.

#50 spanky123

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 07:32 PM

Yeah but you leave the part out about Facebook telling Ms. Stoddard to take a hike!

#51 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 08:22 PM

Yeah but you leave the part out about Facebook telling Ms. Stoddard to take a hike!


If I was FaceBook I'd say the same thing.

#52 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 08:59 PM

BarWatch members will issue a press release Wednesday morning regarding this.


Film at 11.

#53 sebberry

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 09:41 PM

The problem with Facebook is that it is the third party application developers, not facebook themselves, who get to collect personal information from profiles.

If I attampt to install such an application, all it tells me is that personal information required for the application to run will be collected.... It doesn't tell me WHAT information and what gets done with it.

Same thing with the Barwatch program. How many people casually handing over their driver's licence and having their drunk face photographed stop to ask for TreoScope's data collection and privacy policies? They're all too worried about getting laid in the bathroom than how their personal information is handled.


I have an idea.

Instead of collecting raw information such as name, address, DL#, etc... configure the system to generate a unique ID based on a hashing algorithim of the information collected from the scanning of the DL.

Anytime the DL is scanned it generates the same unique ID because the information in the DL is the same.

If the patron is kicked out, the licence is flagged in the system along with notes of the incident and if the DL is scanned at another establishment, they'll still be prompted of the poor behavior.

No personal information is collected or stored, just a non-reversible hash ID of the information stored on the DL.

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#54 http

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 10:50 PM

I have an idea.

Instead of collecting raw information such as name, address, DL#, etc... configure the system to generate a unique ID based on a hashing algorithim of the information collected from the scanning of the DL.

Anytime the DL is scanned it generates the same unique ID because the information in the DL is the same.

If the patron is kicked out, the licence is flagged in the system along with notes of the incident and if the DL is scanned at another establishment, they'll still be prompted of the poor behavior.

No personal information is collected or stored, just a non-reversible hash ID of the information stored on the DL.


That is a very good idea; I like it and approve and am envious that someone else thought of it first. As far as realworld implementation goes, I hope a hashing method could be agreed upon that is resistant to a rainbow table attack.
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#55 jklymak

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 05:27 AM

Instead of collecting raw information such as name, address, DL#, etc... configure the system to generate a unique ID based on a hashing algorithim of the information collected from the scanning of the DL.


Ins't that essentially encrypting the data, which Treoscope claims they do? They, of course, routinely unencrypt it. In any case, you have to trust that the unique id is lossy, or trust them to never unencrypt it.

In any case, the commisioner's ruling seems pretty straight forward. You can keep performing the scans, but you can't store the information for more than a day unless a patron is blackballed. Hardly seems like a difficult change.

#56 victorian fan

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 07:54 AM

TC today:

B.C. watchdog bans ID scans at bars

http://www.timescolo...5202/story.html

#57 sebberry

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 03:51 PM

Ins't that essentially encrypting the data, which Treoscope claims they do? They, of course, routinely unencrypt it. In any case, you have to trust that the unique id is lossy, or trust them to never unencrypt it.

In any case, the commisioner's ruling seems pretty straight forward. You can keep performing the scans, but you can't store the information for more than a day unless a patron is blackballed. Hardly seems like a difficult change.


Its sort of like encrypting the data, but in a way that it cannot be decrypted. An ID # is generated based on the information scanned from the driver's licence and that ID # is what is used to flag patrons in the system. Because that ID # contains no personal information it could be kept indefinately.

The customer's personal information would never be stored, nor would it need to be stored. This virtually eliminates the risk that any data can be misused or stolen.

The only thing you'd have to store is the customer's photograph, and it would be deleted when the establishment closes as all it is needed for is to look up the ID # the doorman needs to flag.

It would work perfectly, perform exactly the same function and not store any personal data should the shitfaced douchebag trying to get into the club care. :)

PS, IMO the sort of clientele that these places cater to probably don't care too much about the collection and retention of personal data. Look how much information 20somethings put up on Facebook for the world to see. I think that fact comes into play when companies like TreoScope develop and sell systems like this.

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#58 sebberry

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 03:53 PM

VicHockeyFan: I recall you run/work at an establishment that implements TreoScope? Would you be satisfied with a system like I describe that stores zero personal information but instead an ID derived from the personal information scanned?

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#59 Ginger Snap

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 06:54 PM

Seems that they might still be able to pull this out of the fire. From CFAX website:

POLICE EXPECT "BARWATCH" TO SURVIVE WITHIN PRIVACY RULES
Jul 22, 2009

DEPUTY CHIEF BILL NAUGHTON SAYS THE VICTORIA POLICE STILL SUPPORT THE "BAR WATCH" CONCEPT, DESPITE THE CONCERNS RAISED IN A DECISION BY THE PRIVACY COMMISSIONER.

NAUGHTON EXPECTS THE PROGRAM TO CONTINUE TO EXIST, IN SOME MODIFIED FORM...

"The important thing to look at here is that the Commissioner has explicitly invited all the stakeholders to meet with and consult with his office with respect to the concerns that he raised...and that's an obvious opportunity that I believe everyone is going to take opportunity to participate in".

NAUGHTON SAYS THE POLICE DEPARTMENT WILL NOT BE TAKING THE LEAD, BUT WILL PARTICIPATE IN THOSE DISCUSSIONS AS "ONE OF THE STAKEHOLDERS".

#60 Bob Fugger

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 07:29 AM

Victoria bars will continue to swipe IDs
Privacy watchdog's ruling applies only to Vancouver club, they say

By Katie Derosa, Times Colonist
July 23, 2009 6:02 AM

Victoria bars will continue to swipe patrons' IDs and take their photos despite a ruling that collecting personal information as a condition of entry violates privacy laws.

"We are going to conduct business as usual based on a venue-specific decision," Victoria Bar and Cabaret Association spokesman Scott Gurney said yesterday.

He said his organization believes the ruling made Tuesday by B.C. Information and Privacy Commissioner David Loukidelis applies only to the Vancouver bar that was the subject of the original complaint. In that ruling, Loukidelis ruled that the TreoScope system used at Wild Coyote Club in Vancouver violated the Personal Information and Privacy Act by forcing customers to provide personal information before entering the bar.

Two weeks ago, the Victoria bars implemented their own Bar Watch program, using the TreoScope EnterSafe system, which scans people's IDs and takes their photos before they enter.

A privacy expert says although Loukidelis's decision centres around the one complaint made five years ago, it has wide-reaching implications.

"If any bar is collecting similar amounts of information through the Treoscope technologies, then they are clearly in violation of the privacy law," said University of Victoria political science professor Colin Bennett.

He said anyone could go into a bar that uses the technology, register a complaint with the commissioner, and the ruling would be the same.

The B.C. Civil Liberties Association predicts that's exactly what will happen in Victoria. Association's policy director Micheal Vonn said she is "positive" complaints about local bars will flood into Loukidelis's office.

Still, TreoScope president Owen Cameron insisted the ruling will not affect Victoria bars even though the Treoscope systems used here collects and stores a patron's name, age, driver's licence number and expiry date -- as did the one at Wild Coyote. Cameron said the software has been upgraded several times since it was examined by the privacy commissioner and there have been changes to how much information is collected and how long it is stored.

He said the stakeholders will meet with Loukidelis with the hope of reaching a compromise that allows the Treoscope system to continue with modifications that meet privacy laws.

Although Loukidelis ruled that he has not seen any evidence that suggests patrons are more safe because of the technology, Cameron said he is sure new statistics from Vancouver and Nanaimo, where Bar Watch programs have existed for more than two years, will persuade him otherwise.

"It's incumbent upon bar owners to demonstrate to the commissioner that what they are doing in other bars collects less information," Bennett said.

Alberta's Bar Watch program faced similar problems when the province's privacy commissioner, Frank Work, deemed that scanning licences is a privacy violation.

The Alberta government reached a middle ground, with legislation that enables bars to take the names and ages of patrons, and to snap photos, but denies them the right to swipe ID.

The Wild Coyote Club has 30 days to appeal the decision to the B.C. Supreme Court.

Club manager Greg Bell said management will read the report before deciding.


That's a heck of an argument. By that same logic, abortion is only not illegal in Ontario.

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