140 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

In caves, mostly.

[max.bravo]

I don’t quite agree with Mike’s assessment of Abrahamic religions, at least not Christianity.

Above loving others more than you love yourself, the more important ethos is to love God first and foremost. Jordan Peterson frames this in a useful way, that everyone has a hierarchy of values, and all your actions naturally result from that hierarchy, whether you’re conscious of it or not. The idea with Abraham religions is to place God at the top of that hierarchy, Allee, loving God, and loving your neighbor, flows from that proper hierarchical distribution.

I’m also going to push back on VW’s claim that most people are good people. The underlying foundation of Abraham religion is that most people are not good. We have wicked hearts, and the human heart is deceptive above all this is the entire reason we need to place something greater than ourselves as our primary object of worship.

Definitely agree that any Luciferian religion places self at the top of the values hierarchy how anybody thinks that could be good for themselves, or for society is beyond me

[Victoria Watcher]

OK, how about most people like to be seen to be good people.

I think that thing where you can electrocute others anonymously might prove we all have a sadistic streak.

https://www.psycholo...ty-and-behavior

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 17 April 2024 - 08:06 AM.

[Mike K.]

The best example I can provide for where our society is today, is as follows:

It’s ok to steal, if it’s a crime of survival.

Is that a Luciferian concept? You guys decide.

People dedicate their lives to debating scripture. It’s par for the course for us to disagree on the meanings of the passages and teachings. For example, my interpretation of what Max said would he to disagree on God being at the top of the ‘love me’ hierarchy. The love from Man, as I understand it, is to be equal, for Him, and mankind.

I’m also not a churchgoing Catholic so don’t come to me for advice on religion, lol.

[max.bravo]

Apologies for typos in reply above - voice to text isn’t always kind to me.

Mike, in the Torah /pentateuch it’s really clear that the prime directive of Abrahamic religions is this:

Deuteronomy 6:5. “And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.”

It was Jesus who elucidated that loving others is the next part of that directive (you love others because you love God first, and He commands you to love others)

Matthew 22:36-39
New International Version
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]

[Mike K.]

Right. The debate will rage on forever.

See, it’s 50:50! We’ll have to go to war with whomever disagrees, unfortunately.

[lanforod]

How does that equal 50:50? There is a first and greatest, and then a second commandment. That's not 50/50. But both must be kept.

It's 100/100, but if theres a conflict, the first one takes precedence.

Edited by lanforod, 17 April 2024 - 08:42 AM.

[Mike K.]

Just be good to others, mkay?

[Mike K.]

Here’s another excerpt, Matthew 22:37-40:

Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ - https://tpcc.org/dai...or as yourself.

It’s scripture debate. It will outlive us all.

[lanforod]

Either way, "It's 100/100, but if theres a conflict, the first one takes precedence."

[max.bravo]

Here’s another excerpt, Matthew 22:37-40:

Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ - https://tpcc.org/dai...or as yourself.

It’s scripture debate. It will outlive us all.

Careful Mike, you might get sucked into the Berean rabbit hole! 

 

So I don't know which translation that website is using, but it's not hard to see how other translators have treated the original greek. 

 

If you want to really dig in, you can look it up using an interlinear concordance and see the original greek for yourself. Here's one: https://biblehub.com...tthew/22-39.htm

 

The word translated as "equally important" in your translation above, and as "like unto it" in most translations is G3664 Homoios. 

Here is a comprehensive look at where and how this word is used/translated across the bible. https://biblehub.com/greek/3664.htm

 

If you want to see how the NT writers would've applied that word to a Greek translation of the Old Testament, you can dig in further looking at the Septuagint (abbreviated as LXX) - this is often useful to get inside the minds of people who spoke koine greek in the 1st century AD. 

 

This is an endlessly fascinating textual/spiritual rabbit hole... you've been warned!

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Edited by max.bravo, 17 April 2024 - 12:45 PM.

[max.bravo]

to be clear, I'm not saying that loving others is secondary and therefore optional.

 

my belief is that Jesus meant what he said here:

 

“If you love me, you will obey my commandments..." John 14:15

"My commandment is this: love one another, just as I love you.  -John 15:12

 

So if you're not loving others, you show that you don't love God, thereby violating the first and greatest commandment. The two commandments are inextricably intertwined to Christians - ie, you can't do one without the other. 

 

Now, are Christians good at this? No, definitely lots of room for improvement. But that's the ideal we're striving for. 

[LJ]

Here’s another excerpt, Matthew 22:37-40:

Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ - https://tpcc.org/dai...or as yourself.

It’s scripture debate. It will outlive us all.

I loved my neighbour once, it didn't work out so well.

[Matt R.]

Mine burn garbage sometimes. No love lost

[max.bravo]

Mine burn garbage sometimes. No love lost

This is why the Christian life is hard, and requires “taking up your cross daily” (dying to what you want, in order to do what God wants instead). I imagine it would feel something like death to love that neighbor Matt.

32If you love [only] those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.

33If you [only] do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.

35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Imagine a society where people actually lived that out. Impossible seeming, but there is a way.

[Mike K.]

Way above my pay grade. 

[max.bravo]

Mine too!

[Mike K.]

Can we get back to talking about the symmetry between the LDS and the Masons?

 

LDS Church temple worship shares a limited commonality of symbols, signs, and vocabulary with Freemasonry, including aprons, tokens, ritualistic raising of the arms, etc. Many of these symbols have been adopted and adapted from Masonry to illustrate the principles taught in the movement.

 

- https://en.wikipedia...and_Freemasonry

[m3m]

So does that mean Mormonism is a luciferian church too?

[Mike K.]

Yup. That’s the argument.

They consider all other Christian branches to be heretical. So along comes Joe Smith (founder of the LDS), who says an angel told him to do this and that, etc, which he decided to do in the spirit of Masonry? While the bible says do not idolize angels or worship according to their commands? As Christianity generally frowns on Christians becoming Masons, and the Catholic Church even forbids it?

It’s just all so peculiar.

But then a lot of things about all religions are. So don’t listen to me, investigate it further if it interests you. The meanings behind the symbols are pretty clear once you know what to look for. Nothing is by chance or accident.