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Moon Under Water Brewery and Distillery, pub and tasting room | 350 Bay Street


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#21 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 11:49 AM

^^ Huh, well if their primary business is to sell food, I'm not clear how they are still in business! Are minors allowed?


Minors are allowed in FP. It's a restaurant license and even councils cannot deny a FP liquor license if they are zoned for a restaurant. Councils can have say whether they allow "audience participation" events like karaoke, dart boards or live music etc. They need a separate endorsement for that.

Theoretically FP licensees must achieve 50% of their gross sales from food, averaged over a week, and sell their full menu of food at all times they operate (wherein a pub can close off food sales at, say, 9pm or 11pm). There must be a table seat set with a place setting for every patron in a FP, wherein a pub or club with a LP license may have lots of standees, and need not dole out the cutlery in advance. FP cannot encourage or even allow patrons to move about with drinks in hand.

#22 pontcanna

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 09:52 PM

Well, I'm all over this. Wish I had learned about it earlier, I would have attended the Burnside Community Centre meeting. As it is, I'd be happy to write to City council to express my support. Another brewpub/brewery within staggering distance of home (Canoe, Swan's, Phillips, Vancouver Island...).

#23 Rob Randall

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 10:39 PM

I believe that once you create a liquor primary license, you cannot uncreate it, so Council will give some thought to that.

Some other things that did not make it into the article:

The chef from Pablos restaurant will oversee the creation of the menu.
They claim the self-service model is preferable as it will eliminate problems caused by server miscommunication and is the model used in a lot of authentic English pubs.

Correct me if I am wrong but the only walking-distance places to get a pint for Dockside Green or Railyards residents is Spinnakers or Swans.

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#24 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 05:45 AM

They claim the self-service model is preferable as it will eliminate problems caused by server miscommunication and is the model used in a lot of authentic English pubs.


That will be interesting. And I'm almost positive it won't work.

We aren't used to dealing in cash nearly as much any more. In traditional English pubs, you go to the bar to buy each drink, pay cash, you either order food at the bar or at a kitchen window, pay cash.

There are no servers, but there are bussers picking empties and plates. But "pay cash" has become foreign to many. You can get away with the cash model in nightclubs, many do not take debit, many will let you run a credit card tab. But the ones that don't take debit direct you to the bank machine they own or lease, they like the $1.75 or whatever they get for each transaction, and they also like the convenience of a way to get their cash sales back into circulation without having to go to the bank every day.

But nightclubs are full of young people that don't care about the $3 private bank machine service charge. This pub won't have customers that are like that, and the pub will not want to run debit at the bar for drink after drink, it'll cost them too much time and fees.

I ran a nightclub that was full of young people. We did accept debit, but actually charged 50 cents per transaction for it. Here is a typical weekend day/night:

CASH $5500
DEBIT $2500
Credit Card $2000

And again, that a younger person's place. The pub will see way more credit card use.

I think it will be awkward.

#25 Van

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 08:19 AM

The Tudor House was a self-serve pub for a long time (different owners now, so it isn't anymore), so saying it "won't work" probably won't be right, more like "won't be popular".

#26 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 08:55 AM

The Tudor House was a self-serve pub for a long time (different owners now, so it isn't anymore), so saying it "won't work" probably won't be right, more like "won't be popular".


When Maude Hunter's opened the food was self-serve, order at a window, they called your name out when your food was ready. We'd have a good time making up strange, difficult or foreign names for ourselves so when they called out name everyone would look to see what nationality we were.

I just think this is so out of style now, people expect more service when they order food and drink, esp. with today's prices. The bussers will be in an awkward position, people will ask them for more tartar sauce and they will have to say "go see the kitchen", they will ask for another round of beers, they'll tell you to "go to the bar". Works when everyone is set up like this and everyone knows, it works with "regulars", but it won't work with 90% of customers.

Also, indeed there are 100's of people working nearby, but they should not count on seeing any of them from 1-4pm, and less than 5% of them after work. 6000 people work on the base, I'm sure less than 50 of them go to Tudor House each night after work. They are going to need to be more of a destination, and honestly the new drinking/driving laws are not going to help anyone outside the downtown core.

#27 pontcanna

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 05:59 PM

Self-serve is undoubtedly more civilised (note spelling) but of course you get the visitors, plus some locals, sitting there waiting for a wait-person. Even Spinnnakers gave up the ghost on queue-at-the-bar years ago - though purists can still get served at the bar if they choose. I love that there will be a little oasis of ale in the dusty wasteland of hooker-land :)

#28 spanky123

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 06:36 PM

If I am correct, Dan Parker owns that building. Wouldn't be surpised if the plan isn't to just get a liquor primary license and then try to sell the property.

Years ago there was a bar / pool hall at the corner of Bridge and John. It didn't last which says a lot.

#29 LJ

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:50 PM

The Tudor House was a self-serve pub for a long time ".


When was it self serve?

It was full serve when I frequented the place, mind you that was back in the dark ages.
Life's a journey......so roll down the window and enjoy the breeze.

#30 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 05:37 AM

A couple of other things. Like it or not, one of the concepts of a waitress is to push more drinks. Nothing is more profitable in the bar business than offering another round of drinks to a group that might otherwise have forgotten to order, got caught up in conversation etc. That cute waitress leans in, shows a little cleavage, bats her eyelashes and asks you for your next drink order - who can resist? Imagine if every server can squeak out an extra drink order from half her tables? You might be able to make an extra $300 PROFIT every day from your place, an extra $10k per month in profit. And I mean it's profitable because you already have a customer in your place, no acquisition cost. That's why if I ran the rules, NEVER would a waitress going off shift be allowed to announce that to the group and ask them to settle up. That's lazy and greedy on the part of the servers. When I get that, I tell the waitress "no thanks, just move our bills over to the next server taking over" then I immediately check my dirty-look-o-meter™ and see if it's off the scale. Luckily I have a heavy-duty model.

This is how the waitress should sign off in my place.

Waitress: Well guys, I've got good news and bad news

Guys: Oh ya?

Waitress: The bad news for me is I have to get going and it sucks because I had a good time serving you. The good news for you is that Candy is going to take over, she's right over there (points to Candy, and Candy waves to the guys) and she is TOTALLY looking forward to serving you, I already told her about you.

Guys: Awesome

Waitress: But I hope you guys can come back when I work next, I'm here Thursdays days and Friday nights! In the meantime, here's how to find me on Facebook (hands them custom awesome-looking FaceBook "player" card, modeled after a hockey card)


One thing I like is the licensed coffee shop, there are a couple in town, Black Stilt and Union Pacific Coffee come to mind. Nobody expects table service at a coffee shop, and there is absolutely no reason for them not to carry alcohol, especially if they make a bid for a little bit later evening traffic. Everyone loves a liquor-based coffee drink. Even me, and I don't drink coffee. (Hold the jokes, Holden).

#31 lmoe

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 07:43 AM

I think the first thing to realize here is that these folk are building a brewpub which is governed by yet another set of totally weird and bizarre laws not applied to either bars or restaurants. Go have a wee chat with Paul Hadfield if you want a full acount of the hoops he had to jump through before he finished Spins.

If memory serves, although this wrinkle was worked out before the doors opened, beer kegs could not be taken directly from the brewery to pub without going for a ride on a truck--something the early teamsters had managed to get worked into law--which meant he would have to fill his kegs and load them onto a truck, drive around the block and carry them back into the same building and down to the cellar where the lines awaited.

Also, brewpubs are limited in the number of patrons they can have. Originally it was a limit of 75 people--a nice number for a small party but not really workable for any profit making venture. Paul got around that by putting in the restaurant in order to be able to seat more people and also bring in families.

A lot of it has changed since then, of course, but I do believe the the hours of operation and the number of patrons are still more restricted than for a bar. And the number of parking spots falls under the neighborhood pub designation which means there is a legislated assumption people will be walking to their local for a quick, social pint before heading home again to the frying pan or trouble ''n strife.

The Crow and Gate, cited in the article as their model for this pub, does have table service but walk up for the food. It hasn't seemed to cut down on their business stuck out on a side road in the middle of nowhere on the way to Nanaimo....The key here is not so much "traditional pubs" as the west coast evolution from English pubs, so I think these folk will have table service too. Much as I may hope for hand-pump beer engines and small batch conditioned kegs on the bar, I'm pretty sure CO2 will be pushing their product.

A brewpub owner should be more interested in how much their staff knows about the house brews on tap than in upping her tips by pushing her taps into the customers' faces.

A brewpub customer's concerns should be the quality of the beer and whether it's being served in a real pint glass instead of cleverly engineered piece of silica designed to fool you into thinking you're getting your money's worth (the glass, not the waitress...okay, that works too)...

It will be interesting to see what emerges from all this.

#32 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 08:17 AM

^ Bah, your bar sounds like a stuffy bore. Break out the tits!

j/k, good post, good points, welcome to the forum!

#33 lmoe

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 11:06 AM

Ha! and your personal collection of terry cloth table covers...

:cool:

#34 Van

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 03:38 PM

When was it self serve?

It was full serve when I frequented the place, mind you that was back in the dark ages.


It switched to full service last year, I believe.

#35 EskimoDave

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 05:55 PM

Does anyone know how to contact the owners?

#36 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 06:51 PM

Does anyone know how to contact the owners?


Call City Hall (legislative services) and ask for the public info for the rezoning. They will have a name(s) and number.

#37 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 09:22 PM

Anybody heard anything about this place?
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#38 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 07:52 AM

http://www.bclocalne...s/93602499.html

On March 23, the day Bonnie jokingly refers to as Black Tuesday, they realized a brewpub requires a liquor primary licence, rather than a food primary licence. A liquor primary licence triggers a rezoning requirement through the city.

“We just had signed the lease and just had gotten the equipment,” Bonnie said. “Nobody had ever mentioned it,” added Don.



:confused:
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#39 Holden West

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 08:09 AM

That's kind of naive, sorry.

Parts of Rock Bay might be zoned for a slaughterhouse but that doesn't mean you can set up shop tomorrow without getting a license from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency or whatever it is.
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#40 maniac78

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 01:22 PM

They must think they're special or something and can operate a bar on a restaurant license. Do these people ever think to themselves "gee why do they have two types of liquor licenses?". Also they're questioning why people in the community would want to be part of the process of granting a liquor license. Gee I wonder why that is? I know I wouldn't want a pub next door to me.

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