119 replies to this topic

[Langford Rat]

I love that mentality, show me the paper from the judge. Realistically if you have nothing to hide, what is your problem with the police. They are doing a job just like that next person. I find it is always the people that have something to hide that wind up with that reaction, which only heightens the police suspicion of an individual.

Hey, that's a pretty neat trick. Now I see how it works. So some random cop walks up to you and, without any reasonable grounds for suspicion says "OK Buddy...turn out your pockets for me" and you say "You have no probable cause for a search" Well, only guilty people would react like that so.......now he has probable cause. Very tidy

[maniac78]

Hey, that's a pretty neat trick. Now I see how it works. So some random cop walks up to you and, without any reasonable grounds for suspicion says "OK Buddy...turn out your pockets for me" and you say "You have no probable cause for a search" Well, only guilty people would react like that so.......now he has probable cause. Very tidy

Hey why stop there? Let me in your house let's take a look. Maybe have your wife strip search for me nothing to hide eh? Some people just don't get it. There are reasons we have these rights. You should really talk to someone who has lived in a country where these rights don't exist sometime to find out why. Since I have nothing to hide there is no reason to search me, officer.

[PMCon]

Hey why stop there? Let me in your house let's take a look. Maybe have your wife strip search for me nothing to hide eh? Some people just don't get it. There are reasons we have these rights. You should really talk to someone who has lived in a country where these rights don't exist sometime to find out why. Since I have nothing to hide there is no reason to search me, officer.

Thats putting my words and opinion completely out of context. If I have to be that specific with you, than so be it. IF you gather at a large public event and you have nothing to hide, what the hell is your problem with having the cops take a look in a bag. They are there to PROTECT YOU from the hooligans and other criminal elements that seem to show up at these kind of events looking for a "good" time or just to stir **** up. If you are randomly walking down the street minding your own business, and don't look or aren't acting in a manner that could be deemed "suspcious" than they have no right to bother you, same goes for a private residence, don't be ridicuous, that was certainly not what I was saying or implying. As some people have shown in recent months large gatherings can be a recipe for disaster (Vancouver Riots) so either swallow your high on the horse "we deserve these rights" attitude and realize the police aren't running around like the Gestapo or SS, but rather looking to protect the greater good of families and others that are out to enjoy an event in a respectful manner. YOU do not have the RIGHT to drive under the influence of anything, driving is a PRIVELGE, not a RIGHT, if you abuse it, expect it to be taken away and pay the consequences that are clearly outlined for the BETTERMENT of society as a whole. I frankly will vocally and whole heartedly support the police in random searches at events such as Canada Day, Fireworks, Sympthony Splash etc because its obvious society as a whole has become so high and mighty on themselves thinking they can do whatever they want, which in effect puts those of us who can act responsbily and like mature individuals in harms way. Search more backpacks, dump out more alcohol, it isn't your right to disrupt community celebrations because a person has drunken deubachery or other violence on their agenda, which in reality 9 times out 10 the people that have there alcohol dumped out or weapons siezed at these events are out for.

[sebberry]

Realistically if you have nothing to hide, what is your problem with the police. They are doing a job just like that next person. I find it is always the people that have something to hide that wind up with that reaction, which only heightens the police suspicion of an individual.

If I have nothing to hide, what do you have to gain from searching me?

[sebberry]

If you are randomly walking down the street minding your own business, and don't look or aren't acting in a manner that could be deemed "suspcious" than they have no right to bother you,

But if someone is randomly walking down the street minding their own business and not looking or acting suspiciously, and that street leads them to the Canada Day fireworks, then the police do have a right to bother you?

[PMCon]

If I have nothing to hide, what do you have to gain from searching me?

So, you have nothing to hide, I've gathered that. How would you feel when the Police don't search bags, don't factor in some due diligence and you wind up getting caught in the middle of a bunch of drunken teens, or gangsters with ice picks, brass knuckles or better yet knives and or guns and as a result you get shot, stabbed, or otherwise injured. I know most people who say the police are trampling on my rights, would turn around and do an about face and say the Police weren't doing enough to protect me.

I was at the Stanley Cup Final in the outdoor stages of Vancouver, I was 100 feet from where it started. I was at 4 other outdoor shown games. Every other game people with bags were searched, weapons seized, booze poured out. The ONE game they don't, a riot ensues, largely fueled by a bunch of punks running on the booze quotient. I found several of my employees on the pages of the Vancouver Sun the next day, I should say now ex-employees.

I will stand by the police making random searches, if it slows you down you by 3 minutes, but saves someone else from injury because the next person they randomly search had a gun or a knife and was out looking for trouble

[sebberry]

Every other game people with bags were searched, weapons seized, booze poured out. The ONE game they don't, a riot ensues, largely fueled by a bunch of punks running on the booze quotient. I found several of my employees on the pages of the Vancouver Sun the next day, I should say now ex-employees.

You also have to realize that if there is to be a riot, it will most likely happen on the final game. To the rioters, the final game is a much more appropriate "stage" for them to engage in their anarchist ways than any of the other games were.

People were using mailboxes as tools to smash up windows. It wouldn't matter if the police seized ice picks from backpacks. In fact, many of the people doing the rioting didn't have any "riot gear" with them. Group mentality kicked in, and that you can't search a backpack for.

[Langford Rat]

I have no problem with submitting to a shake-down when going to an organized event. You want to pat me down before going into a concert, or a night club, or getting on a plane...that's just fine. I can accept that or I can choose not to go. We get on a slippery slope though when we start thinking it's ok to be searched (just to be on the safe side) in public by some authority figure who thinks we may have intentions of getting up to no good or thinks we may be heading to an area where others are getting up to no good. A few years ago in Victoria transit buses were randomly boarded by cops who searched passengers and confiscated their legally obtained and unopened liquor on the basis that they might be heading to the Canada Day celebration. That's what I find frightening. That, and the fact that a lot of folks thought it was OK.

[Mike K.]

Icepicks, brass knuckles and whatever else the kids had in their backpacks won't stop them from injuring an individual. Something as simple as a bottle of juice can be used to severely injure or kill someone -- or better yet a snapped branch from a tree, both of which are easily available anywhere, any time.

I do not agree with random police searches and I find it irresponsible to subscribe to the notion that if you have nothing to hide, you should forfeit your right to your property and person. That's nonsense (IMO) but if its accepted by the community at large as yet another feel-good means of ensuring our "safety and security" then more of this nonsense we will get and the more pervasive it will become.

Jack Layton's dying words were to live with hope, not fear, but its fear that we subscribe to every time the police are given grounds to search us under the guise of security.

[sebberry]

Well put, Mike.

[kenjh]

good words mike..thank you Jack ...my freedom was going for a motorcycle ride ..with all the cop's downtown the highway clear..it was a nice ride. I will not go to the downtown search nor most events ,because I do not trust cop's ..or junkies ..so I stay away from where they are ..back to the .05 ..I think it is wrong in the FORCE used ..education first ..and yes ..I believe in tempering with helping rather then force,,there is always room to help then crucify..police are there to help ...but I cannot find a police officer ..a cop yah ..

[maniac78]

The other issue here is where the hell does all this stop? What line is the line that the anything for security crowd says is too far here? Before the underwear bomber made his attempt to blow up a plane with a bomb shoved down his pants people joked while taking off their shoes "thank god it was just his shoes". Now we do have strip searching at the airport along with the virtual strip search machines (how do you think they clear "anomalies" google it if you don't believe me). People are being terrorized for traveling within their own damn country for the illusion of security.

The whole bloody point of the rights that have made up western society for hundreds of years is to protect YOU. These rights are not negotiable, they are not for some thug to take away for expediency. The knee jerk reaction today of people saying it's time to do away with these rights is very troubling to me. There was very little crime in the Soviet Union is that the kind of society we want?

[kenjh]

for my security I stand up for what I believe , in my area ..I don't call 911 .if someone is in need we all help ..not wait 15 minuets for the cops ..one plane did not hit it's target because someone stood up time we stood up ..

[http]

IF you gather at a large public event and you have nothing to hide, what the hell is your problem with having the cops take a look in a bag.

My problem is the police are not doing their job if they're looking in my bag. If I have nothing to hide, the police have no reason to investigate me. If they think there is a reason, they are either (a) lying, or (b) spectacularly incompetent.

...If you are randomly walking down the street minding your own business, and don't look or aren't acting in a manner that could be deemed "suspcious" than they have no right to bother you. ...

It doesn't matter whose business I am minding, but here, you yourself reveal the problem with your earlier reasoning.

... realize the police aren't running around like the Gestapo or SS, but rather looking to protect the greater good of families...

False. In actual practice, a goodly number of them hereabouts are getting T4s for being the god damned bully they were in elementary school. Look different? Get jacked up. Ask a salient question about getting jacked up? Get shoved into a wall, a tree, the person behind you. Suggest that their interpretation of events might be wrong? Meet the business end of jiu jitsu. Police become oddly irrational when contradicted. My own experience is split about 50/50 - there have been times where they've made my awful day a lot better, and there have been times where they've taken a non-issue all the way through to bloodshed. People have asked me why I trust them at all, and it's because I have a deep seated belief, supported by decades of observation, that most people, given the chance, are nice to each other.

But with police, it is absolutely not enough that most of them be decent people. It only takes one undisciplined constable to ruin the integrity of an entire force. That their fellow officers aren't (i) taking them out back and beating the tar out of them before (ii) firing them, speaks badly about their character and the pride they should be taking in their chosen profession. The badge carries an obligation to visibly conduct yourself ethically, and I'd gladly turn a blind eye to such a minor infraction as assault in such a case. A corrupt officer is worse scum, in my eyes, than a pedophile.

I frankly will vocally and whole heartedly support the police in random searches... Search more backpacks, dump out more alcohol, it isn't your right to disrupt community celebrations because a person has drunken deubachery or other violence on their agenda, which in reality 9 times out 10 the people that have there alcohol dumped out or weapons siezed at these events are out for.

You support nonsense. Carrying a backpack is not sufficient warrant for the police to take any action. Neither is riding the bus. Neither is attending a festival. Random searches are a giant "Fuck You" to due process. I have no appreciation of drunken hooligans messing things up for everyone else, and I fully support police officers being a buzzkill for those idiots - dump their beer, throw them in the cells, make them recite Emily Dickenson - but they better be doing it based on observations. You know, evidence. It's not particularly hard to spot the drunk in a crowd of sober people. Don't ask me to support the police investigating people without an actual cause. There's no basis in law for it, and the judiciary has traditionally taken a dim view of police going on fishing expeditions.

[kenjh]

good to know I am not being paranoid,but still gives me hope that the corrupt cops will be purged ( I live in a fantasy}and we will be protected for thieves and the drug dealers and thugs that seem to populate the law enforcement now..

[http]

The other issue here is where the hell does all this stop? What line is the line that the anything for security crowd says is too far here?...

It does not stop. The line does not exist in their eyes, and you're a malcontent terrorist for bringing it up. You hit the nail on the head with "anything for security." You will never find them saying, "Once we are able to inspect all your purchases for the previous six months, that's when we'll stop." They can't say it, because they don't mean it. The goal is continual encroachment - look up the Overton Window for various methods policy wonks use to rationalize it and sell it to a gullible public.

Whatever the violation, it's almost always portrayed as a small step. Why? Because the correct response to violated rights is to resist, to fight back vigorously, but because the offense is portrayed as small, a large response appears disproportionate - "YOU'RE the one being unreasonable here, all I did was ask you to remove your shoes for a moment."

The slightest violation of rights requires adamant and immediate opposition, or they vanish into history. If you won't exercise a right, you don't have it.

[LJ]

http

False. In actual practice, a goodly number of them hereabouts are getting T4s for being the god damned bully they were in elementary school. Look different? Get jacked up. Ask a salient question about getting jacked up? Get shoved into a wall, a tree, the person behind you. Suggest that their interpretation of events might be wrong? Meet the business end of jiu jitsu. Police become oddly irrational when contradicted

I think a lot depends on how you ask your salient question or present your interpretation of events. I've done both and had absolutely no problem with the officers involved. If you treat people (all people) respectfully you usually get treated the same in return. If you fail to adequately put your point across to solve things to your satisfaction there are other remedies at your disposal.

The tone of your response to PMCon suggests you might not always act in this fashion.

[kenjh]

just wondering ..40 years ago when drinking and driving ...was frowned upon ,,but happened every day ..how did we survive..why did we survive..yah it isn't the smartest thing .but ..I really don't give a damm ..I quit just because of the cost ..when beer hit 85 cents a glass..I have a drink 2 or 3 times a year ..at friends ..we just don't go out anymore..so when will the pub's close ..the liqueur stores..and your problem end????

[Mike K.]

What do you mean "how did you survive?" It's not like drinking and driving is a nuclear blast that kills millions and somehow a few "survive."

It's a fact fatalities on the roads related to drunk driving have dropped dramatically since laws were tightened and fatalities continue to fall. Accidents related to drunk driving without fatalities have also declined. You can easily Google stats on this.

In some jurisdictions in Europe drinking and driving laws are even tighter than they are here and publicans are still making do.

[ZGsta]

The comedy value of kenjh's unhinged ramblings is what keeps me coming to vibrantvictoria.ca!