518 replies to this topic

[Nparker]

At least half of the comments on yesterday's Times-Colonist article suggested the time is right for amalgamation. Maybe the citizery of the CRD would not be as opposed to this idea as many think. Of course, the current power structure would come out fighting with tales of doom and gloom if the evil amalgamtion forces ever triumphed. Eventually, however it WILL happen. Maybe first with the services (police, fire etc.) and then in time with the municipalities themselves. I'd forego infrastructure money if the Campbell government could get the CRD amalgamation accomplished.

[Mike K.]

We're not really studying the newly amalgamated Halifax Metropolitan Region as much as we ought to be. HRM can provide the CRD with invaluable advice but the media attention amalgamation does receive rarely includes experiences from HRM.

We should be learning a lot from Victoria's east coast sibling but few of our leaders or local reporters seem to want to get in touch with them.

Hint hint to the TC...Halifax Metropolitan Region has tasty morsels of information you can pass along to local readers...

[Ms. B. Havin]

^ good ideas, Mike. Readers could also take a look at this: Bulletin 14, March 2001. I'm inclined to favour some sort of political amalgamation between the core municipalities, but not at the expense of responsive local government. I'd be against any amalgamation of all the municipalities -- our interests and tax bases (not to mention tax rates!) are too divergent, it would be ridiculous to "serve" everyone with a one-size meal. The CRD has a huge role for us here. I don't see them as such an opaque shadow entity anymore after reading Local Government Organization in the Capital Region (it's a long PDF). Check it out if you have strong views on amalgamation.

[Caramia]

Very interesting reading Ms B.

The report defends an un-amalgamated municipal structure, citing evidence that smaller, more flexible local governments are more cost effective, and more representative then their larger brethren, especially since about half of the services that have economies of scale are handled by the CRD in Victoria's case. Bish points out that in most of our municipalities you do not need to be wealthy or capable of mounting a mass media style election in order to become a councilor. To me that is a significant benefit.

The downside is that these smaller scale governments do not tend to embark on larger projects, and that economic development can become stalled by tax imbalances and rezoning red tape. However these problems can be fixed through other means than amalgamation. Another downside is that because of the decentralised and amateur nature of these smaller councils it is very difficult for lobby groups representing best-practices in regional urban planning to gain a voice in any kind of significant way. I think our fragmented transportation planning problem is the poster child for this frustration in Greater Victoria.

Here is the section I found especially interesting:

First, many municipalities in the capital region have the practice of zoning most land into its existing use--and to do so some have hundreds of zoning categories. This means that every significant change in a business land or building use requires a rezoning process, which not only adds time and cost to the process but creates considerable uncertainty with the politics of the rezoning. Several municipalities also have very strong policies against any kind of home based business. These policies on zoning and home based businesses may have a benefit of providing community input on every land use change but they are policies that make business creation, change and expansion more costly. These policies, however, do not require a regional government to change. They do not even require that all municipalities have more business friendly land use policies. They are, however, important enough to merit review in the region if economic development is to be promoted.

I'd like to keep our local municipalities and also our neighbourhood associations, but with a downplayed role, while shifting the ability and authority to get certain things done (like transportation and policing resource deployment) to the CRD.

I know there are some, like Mr Hartnell, who provide catchy sound bites claiming that the CRD is a non representative organisation. In answer, I reference the CRD's website:

The CRD is governed by the Local Government Act and run by a Board of Directors. CRD Board members also sit as members of the Regional Hospital Board.


The Board is made up of Municipal Directors, who are appointed annually by their councils, and Directors from the Electoral Areas, who are elected for a three-year term. The 22-person Board is charged with guiding the efficient and effective management of issues that cross the boundaries of a single municipality or rural area. Board meetings are held once a month and are open to the public.


Representation on the CRD Board balances the need to reflect varying population bases across the region with different community interests. Each local government gets one vote for every 5000 population. Each local goverment gets one director for every 25,000 population. If a member municipality has more than one director, then the number of votes are divided as evenly as possible.

The CRD can be envisioned as a wholesaler of services, with municipalities acting as retailers and voters as shoppers. While the shoppers don't directly determine what the wholesalers provide, they certainly do determine what the retailers will buy, which in turn impacts what the wholesalers offer. For instance, all municipalities want an abundance of safe clean water. The CRD has an entire department focused on providing just that through watershed managment. Should DUNE style recycling suits come into vogue, and gathering around the community well suddenly become a huge and necessary part of daily social interaction, taxpayers will stop wanting to turn on a tap in their home, municipalities will stop wanting water for their pipes, and the CRD will start selling off watersheds.

[Ms. B. Havin]

^ Very good summary / presentation of Bish's paper, Caramia! Thanks!

(Just one question: "DUNE style recycling suits" are what? Is it a reference to the novel, or is DUNE an acronym of something?)

[Mike K.]

^yes, agreed. Thanks for that.

[Friendly reminder ] I just want to point out that we have an amalgamation thread already running. This thread should really focus more on amalgamation of police forces and emergency services otherwise the summary that Caramia posted may be lost in translation. I like where this recent discussion is going so perhaps you'd like to re-post your summary in the other thread, Caramia? I have some feedback but I'll wait until the summary is reposted.

[Caramia]

err yes, I meant Dune as in the novel. Yum... recycled pee!

And thanks Mike, i will repost that to the general thread tomorrow (I'm on a friends laptop atm)

[gumgum]

Amalgamation no longer a priority with Victoria police
Interim chief says department will have to solve its problems on its own
Rob Shaw, Times Colonist
Published: Thursday, January 10, 2008

Victoria police are no longer looking to solve their staffing problems by demanding the amalgamation of Greater Victoria's regional police forces, the department's interim chief said yesterday.

"We're moving forward on the basis we have to continue to address our own independent issues on this point," Bill Naughton said yesterday at a press conference where he continued to justify a budget increase for 19 new officers. It is clear to Victoria police that they must solve their problems on their own, said Naughton.

Solicitor General John Les has repeatedly refused Victoria's requests to look at one regional police force for the Capital Regional District. There are four municipal police forces and four RCMP detachments serving 13 municipalities from Sooke to Saltspring Island.
Amalgamating them is simply "not happening" Les told the Times Colonist in 2006, the last time the issue was raised, as Victoria police were struggling with their budget and Esquimalt council was complaining police costs were driving their taxes too high.

Communities are best served by having their own police forces that co-operate and share resources for complex issues, such as repeat offenders, traffic enforcement, dive teams and emergency response, said Les.

"Those comments have indicated clearly to us the direction that the solicitor general currently is moving in, and we have no choice but to address those new realities," Naughton said yesterday when asked if amalgamation was still a priority.

Naughton is serving as interim chief, pending the outcome of an investigation into suspended Victoria police Chief Paul Battershill, who is facing allegations that the City of Victoria has refused to fully reveal.

Battershill was a staunch supporter of amalgamation.

rfshaw@tc.canwest.com

© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2008

[Bernard]

Should we cry? Should we laugh? Who knows.

Last night about 10:30 there was a VERY drunk guy standing in the middle of Harriet Road screaming at the top of his lungs that he was going to beat the crap out of someone. I called 911 - as did other neighbours. This guy was violent and irrational looking enough that I did not want to deal with him seeing me and coming up to my house, though he seems to have gone through my yard earlier.

Shortly there after the cops arrive - this should be the end of the problem, right?

Not one cop car, numerous cop cars arrive, an ambulance arrives, the street is cordoned off, the media arrives. This circus continues on for several hours. My bedroom walls were flickering blue and red like a bad disco.

They all finally clear out sometime after 1:30 in the morning.

So what happened? I had no idea. There was nothing in today's media telling me what happened.

A few minutes ago I noticed Stephen Andrew out on the street in front of my house - A Channel was back. I went out to ask them what happened.

Harriet Road is the boundary between Victoria and Saanich - that was the problem. No one could decide who was responsible, which police force should investigate. The guy was bleeding from falling at the party he had been at but the police feared that he may have been stabbed, so that had to close the street and get a detective in. It took till 1:30 for the detective to arrive because no one could decide who was responsible.

The word of possible stabbing explains the arrival of the media.

Three hours of multiple police officers from two municipalities were hanging out on Harriet Road. All this to deal with one drunk.

Harriet Road is in the middle of our neighbourhood but for the police it is some sort of bureaucratic barrier. I worry now what happens if I phone 911 from my phone to deal with a fire - I have no idea which fire department I would be routed to and if they would come or argue?

We need to amalgamate now, this having police forces that act on imaginary lines and do not operate based on neighbourhoods is beyond rational reason.

[Nparker]

Well let's just hope SOMEONE who is able to effect a change is listening. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Bernard.

[VicHockeyFan]

CFAX:

POLICE CLARIFY OVER NIGHT JOINT RESPONSE

Jun 20, 2008

AN APPARENT STABBING ON HARRIET STREET, ON THE VICTORIA-SAANICH BORDER OVER NIGHT, TURNED OUT TO BE, ACCORDING TO POLICE, A NON EVENT.

VICTORIA POLICE SAY SAANICH POLICE RECEIVED A 911 CALL AROUND 11PM LAST NIGHT. WHEN POLICE AND AMBULANCE ARRIVED THEY FOUND A MAN WITH LACERATIONS TO HIS ARM.

THE MAN HAD APPARENTLY SMASHED HIS ARM THROUGH A WINDOW OF A HOUSE IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD AND WAS SUBSEQUENTLY KICKED OUT OF THE HOME.

POLICE INTERVIEWED WITNESSES AND NEIGHBOURS IN THE AREA AND DETERMINED THERE WAS NO STABBING AND THEY WOULDN'T BE PERUSING CHARGES.

THE INCIDENT TOOK PLACE ON THE BORDER BETWEEN THE TWO MUNICIPALITIES AND VICTORIA POLICE SAY IT TOOK A WHILE TO DETERMINE WHICH DEPARTMENT SHOULD INVESTIGATE.

POLICE SAY THE MAN WILL NEED SURGERY ON HIS ARM.

[Bernard]

3 hours is outrageous - what were all these cops doing there on site all that time?

I still wonder how they decided it was a stabbing at all?

I called 911 at 10:48 from the Victoria side of the boundary, but it sounds like Saanich were dispatched.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Unbelievable. Canada-wide, we put up with mobile data plan rates that are more expensive than Rwanda's, and locally we put up with emergency services that make Kosovo look like a model for Swiss banking.

[martini]

CFAX:

POLICE CLARIFY OVER NIGHT JOINT RESPONSE

Jun 20, 2008

AN APPARENT STABBING ON HARRIET STREET, ON THE VICTORIA-SAANICH BORDER OVER NIGHT, TURNED OUT TO BE, ACCORDING TO POLICE, A NON EVENT.

VICTORIA POLICE SAY SAANICH POLICE RECEIVED A 911 CALL AROUND 11PM LAST NIGHT. WHEN POLICE AND AMBULANCE ARRIVED THEY FOUND A MAN WITH LACERATIONS TO HIS ARM.

THE MAN HAD APPARENTLY SMASHED HIS ARM THROUGH A WINDOW OF A HOUSE IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD AND WAS SUBSEQUENTLY KICKED OUT OF THE HOME.

POLICE INTERVIEWED WITNESSES AND NEIGHBOURS IN THE AREA AND DETERMINED THERE WAS NO STABBING AND THEY WOULDN'T BE PERUSING CHARGES.

THE INCIDENT TOOK PLACE ON THE BORDER BETWEEN THE TWO MUNICIPALITIES AND VICTORIA POLICE SAY IT TOOK A WHILE TO DETERMINE WHICH DEPARTMENT SHOULD INVESTIGATE.

POLICE SAY THE MAN WILL NEED SURGERY ON HIS ARM.

Thanks for posting that. I also heard through the grapevine it was a stabbing, pretty incensed to read it wasn't.
That's my love/hate relationship with the media. Do they ever check facts?!

I agree the police presence in this case was ridiculous, but I also have seen Burnside/Gorge get much more police attention in the last year. B/G has the 2nd amount of calls in the city next to downtown, and I believe they're making a concerted effort to service the area.
I know when I've called, they've been here fast enough to successfully deal with each call.

But something's got to give here. The borders have caused numerous problems in many areas, I agree.
Sunny Park comes to mind first.

[yodsaker]

I tend to think there is a certain amount of police incompetence here that amalgamation certainly won't fix.
Oak Bay police totally botched the investigation into the death of Hannah Magder who was killed on a wide-open empty road on a clear night by a speeding taxi. No charges were ever laid and a Saanich Police review of OBPD's handling of the case concluded it was incompetence bordering on negligence.
The OB cop who botched it received a promotion soon after when he should have been shown the exit.
Poor Sunny Park and her family were at the mercy of a deranged, violent husband. Armed, equipped and presumably trained SWAT cops hung around outside for a long time before entering the house. They might have saved lives if they knew their job. Too many toys, not enough competence.
Unfortunately too many of the area's cops think their job is to ride around in late-model cars, wear a cool uniform and hassle jaywalkers.
Amalgamation won't fix that stuff.

[Nparker]

Amalgamation won't fix that stuff.

I disagree. Amalagamation may very well fix, or at least assist, in these issues, as an amalgamated police force, would mean that the more experienced staff of Victoria, Esquimalt and to a lesser extent Saanich forces would be part of the investigative teams in crimes that took place anywhere in the core. The current situation is like having Barney Fife responsible for Oak Bay, and so of course it doesn't work.

[yodsaker]

OBPD is deffo Barney Fife territory!

[Marilyn]

The Oak Bay massacre is the best reason for amalgamation. The Oak Bay police handled it so badly. That wounded woman told them her husband had crashed their car in an attempt to kill her. They interviewed her for 84 minutes. And they did not hold him?!

I'm sure that Victoria police would have handled it better (who could be worse - Barney Fife indeed!). VPD have more experience and more resources.

What's holding up amalgamation? Police unions, mayors, ???

[yodsaker]

The Oak Bay massacre is the best reason for amalgamation. The Oak Bay police handled it so badly. That wounded woman told them her husband had crashed their car in an attempt to kill her. They interviewed her for 84 minutes. And they did not hold him?!

I'm sure that Victoria police would have handled it better (who could be worse - Barney Fife indeed!). VPD have more experience and more resources.

What's holding up amalgamation? Police unions, mayors, ???

From what I recall, the police did want to hold him after he intentionally crashed his vehicle, breaking his wife's arm. The police felt quite strongly that he was a risk as he had a history of other domestic violence incidents.
But a crown prosecutor or some official nixed it... over the phone!

On the night of the killings, there were 2 or 3 PDs at the scene (Saanich, OB and maybe Vic also), including so-called SWAT teams who could have/should have stormed in right away after the terrified woman called 911. Several big guys, armed and protected with bullet-proof vests etc, trained (we think) and they dithered about subduing one guy with a kitchen knife.

[LJ]

From what I recall - two police officers entered the residence, smelled gas and fearing a massive explosion set by a barricaded subject, left the residence. They heard no screams or moans or anyone calling for help.

The ERT guys would not enter the residence unless there was reasonable evidence of a crime in porgress. The information from the officers who entered the residence would not support this. Their mandate in that case would be to wait, and attempt to make contact with anyone left inside and negotiate with them. After this failed you would then attempt forced entry.