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BC (Victoria) liquor law issues and discussion


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#41 Mike K.

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 01:41 PM

I dunno, in the US you have liquor at gas stations, grocery stores, corner stores, whatever, and small independent liquor stores still manage to survive and thrive even within close proximity of the aforementioned.

 

Personally I think the biggest change that needs to happen is easing off on the bloody liquor taxes.


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#42 phx

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 06:59 PM

Personally I think the biggest change that needs to happen is easing off on the bloody liquor taxes.

What would you replace that tax revenue with?


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#43 Nparker

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 07:09 PM

I agree. No one needs alcohol. Along with a high surcharge on tobacco, I have no issues with higher taxes on completely discretionary items, if it helps mitigate the taxes on necessities such as Hydro, telecommunication services and fuel. 



#44 D.L.

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 07:11 PM

People say that all the time, "I need a drink!"

#45 jklymak

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 07:48 PM

I think the level of taxation is pretty orthogonal to the means or distribution. And yeah I strongly agree that specialty stores survive if groceries carry liquor. But there would be a lot fewer cold beer and wine stores.

#46 Joe Schmo

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 08:03 PM

I can go into a beer and wine store today and maybe get some advice or tips on the product but that Safeway stockboy won't be able to give me anything except a blank stare.

Actually, if this is implemented in the right way, you could have excellent customer service.  If they would allow grocery stores to sell liquor and beer in small quantities like in Ontario, it could work.  An example would be for the grocery store to build a small, say, 15' x 10' room within their store.  Make it into a small boutique wine shop, so to speak.  This would  provide an experienced "retiree" with a knowledge for wine to find work that is so hard to come by after a certain age.  Having it like a store within a store also helps with any underage folk trying to access that alcohol.

 

Just my 2cents..



#47 LJ

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 06:50 PM

At the Safeway store I frequent in Arizona the store manager is very knowledgeable about wine and is more than willing to help with your selections. When they have a sale on wines I can call him and he will put away whatever I want.

 

He also told me that their wine and spirits department earned more than their produce department.


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#48 gumgum

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:08 AM

Sure hope they start allowing kids in pubs.

Not such a harebrained idea after all! :banana:

 

Happy hour, kids in pubs should be allowed, B.C. premier says

#49 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:17 AM

One current big difference between pubs and restaurants is that you can walk around the pub with your drink in hand.  Maybe not a big deal at most pubs, most look like restaurants with most patrons seated, servers know who they IDed, and generally where they are.  But consider a place like the Sticky Wicket/Games Room/Clubhouse on a busy Friday afternoon/dinner time.  I could see some cases there where the servers lose track of which people are underagers, and which "kids" came in with what parents.   Suddenly it's not as easy to curb underage drinking.  Also, can an 18-year-old come in with brother/sister/friends that are 19+, or must it be "parents"?  I don't think they could really discriminate against any guardian, and this could very well be an older sibling, or an adult that would not normally be possible to be a biological parent (ie. they are 22, and the guardian of a 17-year-old).

 

Again, not hard to supervise in most places, but busy Fridays etc., I could see all kinds of problems in some places.

 

Now, what do you do at 10pm or 11pm or whenever the minors cut-off is?  How do you ID 300 people inside Bard and Banker without the underagers shifting around to avoid the ID check?

 

I truly think that most busy pub owners would not think this is worth the trouble.  You make most of your money on booze, so while not letting in adults with kids may lose you a tiny bit of business, the fact is, the capacity you loose to allowing two kids in that won't drink, is not worth the bother, when you add that to the enforcement headaches.  Every underager found drinking in your bar will get you at least a $1000 fine, and every underager found there past the minors cut-off will get you at least a $2000 fine.  These escalate with further infractions.

 

Again, it all sounds fine when a couple comes in with two 8-year-old kids at noon for lunch.  It gets very difficult at 8pm when your bar is full of 18 year olds mixing with 19s and 25s and everyone is moving around.

 

Many, many pubs (I'll probably say over 75% of them) also have self-serve lottery terminals (both keno/50-50/poker machines as well as pull-tab machines).  Restaurants don't.  The idea being, of course, everyone in the pub is 19+ and can gamble.   How do pubs police that if they let kids in?  I'll guess if up to pub owners, to be kid-friendly and lose the machines, or be no-kids and keep the terminals, they will go with keeping the terminals.  The government also likes this lottery revenue too, from pubs.  I'm sure they would not like to see hundreds of these machines turned in.

 

On the other ideas, booze-only orders in restaurants sounds fine to me.


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#50 gumgum

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:31 AM

I don't know the details but in Ontario I think they have a distinct classification for a pub versus a bar. I think bc will have to do the same thing to get this off the ground. Also the article states that the allowance for minors would end daily at a certain time in the evening.

Like I've stated, the system works really well in Ontario so I don't see a reason why it shouldn't work here.

#51 gumgum

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:32 AM

Re the gamble thing. They have kiosks in malls and they're are plenty of kids there so...

#52 G-Man

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:40 AM

Some pubs still have cigarette machines too.


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#53 lanforod

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:50 AM

I couldn't care less about being able to buy booze in a grocery store. There seem to be more liquor stores than grocery stores anyways. Most plazas with a major grocery store also have a liquor store. Big deal.

 

I am interested in relaxing the rules though - happy hours would have been nice when I was younger, but taking a kid to a pub for lunch would be awesome. Pub food is cheaper and often better than many restaurants, and the atmosphere of many pubs is great. Make the cutoff 3 or 4 PM.



#54 Mike K.

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:27 AM

I think the key point VHF made is when the minor hours runs out, these kids won't turn into pumpkins and will be difficult to spot in a busy bar on a weekend night (unless the cutoff is 3-4pm as lanforod suggested). With infractions so costly this could put a damper on some pubs' plans to allow minors inside.

And to be perfectly honest with you I don't think minors should be in bars, ever. Everyone up to now is presumed to be the age of majority in a bar and can make every decision for him or herself. So what happens when a 25 year-old starts hitting on a 15 year-old lumped in with his/her just-turned 19 year-old friends? This could turn into a very sticky situation very quickly. I mean, will the 15 year-old reveal he's/she's too young to be in the bar or will he/she go along with the poor sucker who's about to unknowingly walk into a heap of trouble?

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#55 D.L.

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:21 AM

start 'em young!

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#56 gumgum

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:33 AM

What's stopping minors from going to bars now and pretending to be of legal age? There's no difference. If there is suspicion on the servers part when someone orders a drink, they ask for ID. What's the diff?


Edited by gumgum, 18 December 2013 - 11:34 AM.


#57 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:48 AM

What's stopping minors from going to bars now and pretending to be of legal age? There's no difference. If there is suspicion on the servers part when someone orders a drink, they ask for ID. What's the diff?

 

The doorman, and/or the ID check when you arrive.  With the proposed rules, a 25-year-old guy can bring his underage girlfriend, and keep her in past the cut-off.  He goes up to the bar and buys all the drinks.  Think about the busy pubs, like Sticky Wicket, inside or outside on the roof in summer, it's a zoo.   How are you going to know who was IDed, who was underage when you allowed them in at 2pm.  If you have to ID for every single drink served, or follow each multi-drink orderer to his destination to ID the recipient, you are gonna waste lots of time.  And you still can't watch every table to see how drinks are traded, like you can in a relatively calm restaurant.


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#58 G-Man

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:49 AM

They could make everyone that is ID'd at the door that is under 19 wear one of the bib things from highschool gym class.


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#59 lanforod

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:25 PM

The doorman, and/or the ID check when you arrive.  With the proposed rules, a 25-year-old guy can bring his underage girlfriend, and keep her in past the cut-off.  He goes up to the bar and buys all the drinks.  Think about the busy pubs, like Sticky Wicket, inside or outside on the roof in summer, it's a zoo.   How are you going to know who was IDed, who was underage when you allowed them in at 2pm.  If you have to ID for every single drink served, or follow each multi-drink orderer to his destination to ID the recipient, you are gonna waste lots of time.  And you still can't watch every table to see how drinks are traded, like you can in a relatively calm restaurant.

 

In my experience, not every bar/pub does the door check/license scan. Seems like just really busy ones, or ones with a history of trouble, and generally only later in the evening (past 8 pm). I think all clubs/adult entertainment venues do though. I tried to access the Monkey Tree back in October, and it was completely packed. I didn't stay as we wanted a table, but there was no ID check on entry at ~ 6pm on a Friday (UFC night I think).

Sure, you've got situations like that happening now already. Get to the bar before the license scanning happens, and the older folks can buy drinks for the younger all night. Plenty of 15-18 year olds that can pass muster as 19 and vice versa.


Edited by lanforod, 18 December 2013 - 01:26 PM.


#60 gumgum

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 02:16 PM

Well I've been reading up again on Ontario's liquor rules as it applies to minors in pubs. Here are a couple of key points that I've found:

 

-The bar has the option not to allow minors if they so choose

-You can drink in establishments that serves food when a minor is with you as long as it's at a table. You however can't sit at the bar with a minor nor can you take him into a place that is just a bar.

-The establishment must serve food.

 

Honestly, it's a non-issue in Ontario. There are a whole lot more pub in Ontario and when I say pub, I don't mean bar. This term is used interchangeably around here. Most pubs in Ontario are mostly a restaurant and used as one during the day and early evening, then become more of an adult pub at night.

I have tried to dig up more info on liquor and licensing in Ontario and I am having trouble finding details. 

Not all bars are like the Sticky Wicket. As far as they are concerned I would guess they would open the downstairs to minors and keep the rest closed off. Picture a place like the Beagle. I don't think allowing minors would be an issue at all and I don't think it would complicate things.



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