11042 replies to this topic

[sebberry]

The problem that I have with these projects is how ideological they are.  It's like Corey Burger and his "sniffing fumes from cars" crusade while ignoring how the bike lanes might be contributing to green house gases though idling and congestion.  

 

Someone on facebook was talking about electric cars and to further his justification against cars in general, Corey went on about how tire and brake dust is now becoming a bigger polluter.  

 

Now I don't disagree - my condo overlooks a busy intersection and there's definitely a noticeable buildup of leftover Michelins on my deck (and no, not my summer tires being stored there in the winter).  It's just funny how once one goal in the anti-car crusade is reached, another one suddenly needs to be met.  

[Victoria Watcher]

bikes can use streets. just like pedestrians do on streets with no sidewalks.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 13 September 2020 - 08:29 AM.

[Rex Waverly]

Someone on facebook was talking about electric cars and to further his justification against cars in general, Corey went on about how tire and brake dust is now becoming a bigger polluter.  

 

Now I don't disagree - my condo overlooks a busy intersection and there's definitely a noticeable buildup of leftover Michelins on my deck (and no, not my summer tires being stored there in the winter).  It's just funny how once one goal in the anti-car crusade is reached, another one suddenly needs to be met.  

 

Yeah, even for me (a pretty strong bike lane supporter) Corey's argument is a bit of a stretch. 

 

Just to be clear though, the vast majority of bike lane supporters are not on an 'anti-car crusade'. All we're asking for is the ability to safely cycle to work, school, retail, etc; no different than a driver wants to do.  You can rest assured that when the bike network is complete, drivers will still have far more than their fair share of infrastructure. 

 

For example, the downtown bike network is pretty much complete, and thousands of cyclists utilize the network daily. Yet there are still many cars on the road; drivers still make it to their destinations (although it may take 30 seconds extra). The single occupancy vehicle still reigns supreme, even with (or in spite of) the dreaded bike infrastructure. 

[Rex Waverly]

bikes can use streets. just like pedestrians do on streets with no sidewalks.

 

Correction: Bikes can use some streets. 

 

Pedestrians walk on streets with no sidewalks because the traffic volumes are very low on these roads. Pedestrians are not asked to share vehicle lanes on busier roads, because it would be unsafe, and the same should apply to cyclists. No one complains about building sidewalks where required but protected bike infrastructure is somehow both figuratively and literally destroying Victoria as we know it.   

 

(To clarify, by 'cyclist' i mean all ages and abilities, not 'spandex mafia').  

[On the Level]

^ It's the opposite extreme of those people who chose to live in the suburbs and demand that all areas of town be easily accessible by car, from congestion-free roads to free parking at the destination.

Except for many driving a car they don't have a choice. There is over 30 years of anti development sentiment with the official CRD growth plan of pushing families into the Westshore all while having provincial jobs mandated to be downtown.

It speaks to a larger context where only the special interest is taken into account and that's wrong.

[zoomer]

Cycling - an extremely cost effective means of transportation that requires a tiny taxpayer subsidy compared to automobiles, and is good for the environment in terms of construction impact and negating pollution. Where’s the Grumpy Taxpayers when you need them eh.

Also pretty ironic that drivers of disease causing carbon emitters stick their head out the window and yell at cyclists “If you’d just get lost I wouldn’t have to pollute as much!”

So if you don’t want bike lanes and believe cyclists should just use the road.. is it ok if they cycle in front of you? No, I guess that would slow you down even more. What’s the alternative - oh, the way it’s always been? Yah, that was working, no one was complaining then eh, and in terms of safety pretty equal being in a vehicle vs. an unprotected bike right?

As for that claim that building more vehicle lanes will reduce pollution through less idling and quicker traffic - well it appears research (and this thing called science) shows that is not true:

https://usa.streetsb...rbon-emissions/

Hey, I’m not anti-vehicle, I’ve even been in some in my lifetime, but this view that North American drivers are a hard done by lot - yah, ok then...

[LJ]

Right, and that’s fine. But let’s at least get close to the same % spent on bike infrastructure as the % of mode share that uses bikes. Right now, it’s not close.

Also not close is the amount of gas taxes that cyclists provide to pay for their infrastructure.

 

Maybe we could introduce tolled bike lanes.

[marks_28]

Also not close is the amount of gas taxes that cyclists provide to pay for their infrastructure.
 
Maybe we could introduce tolled bike lanes.

The gas tax only represents a portion of bike infrastructure funding. But even so, the majority of cyclists also drive, so they’re already contributing. They are also contributing through property tax (directly and indirectly) as well as through income tax.

So yes, they do pay their share.

[On the Level]

Given the number of cyclists (when viewed year round and not just cherry picking the summer months) are minuscule, I would be interested to know the real cost per capita for each mode of transportation (Public Transit, Cyclists and Vehicles).  Roadway costs need to be shared as they are allocated and not just "free" for cyclists and public transport users. 

 

How much of funds that are being allocated for cars are actually going to cyclists and buses?  

[Rex Waverly]

Given the number of cyclists (when viewed year round and not just cherry picking the summer months) are minuscule, I would be interested to know the real cost per capita for each mode of transportation (Public Transit, Cyclists and Vehicles).  Roadway costs need to be shared as they are allocated and not just "free" for cyclists and public transport users. 

 

How much of funds that are being allocated for cars are actually going to cyclists and buses?  

 

I may be wrong, but aren't gas taxes provincial and federal taxes (i guess other than the transit portion for the CRD and Metro Van)?  Local roads / bike lanes are paid for by the municipality, so gas taxes don't directly go to roads. 

 

People pay taxes to the government (all levels) in exchange for services and infrastructure; that's called being a society. Sure, you don't want your taxes going to bike lanes because you won't use them..... maybe i don't want my taxes going to schools since I don't have kids.  

 

Also, cyclists may not directly fund infrastructure, but the bike lanes typically have a net positive effect on adjacent businesses, increase property values, reduce pollution, and reduce the need for vast tracts of land dedicated to single occupancy vehicles. 

[Mike K.]

When someone has a medical emergency I wonder how fast a bikeambulance can get them to a hospital? Does the gurney attach to the back like one of those carts I see some cyclists use? I suppose the patient has to hold their own IV drip. It's good they already come with wheels.

 

Whatever happened to the rapid response BC Ambulance Service bike patrols?

[On the Level]

I may be wrong, but aren't gas taxes provincial and federal taxes (i guess other than the transit portion for the CRD and Metro Van)?  Local roads / bike lanes are paid for by the municipality, so gas taxes don't directly go to roads. 

 

People pay taxes to the government (all levels) in exchange for services and infrastructure; that's called being a society. Sure, you don't want your taxes going to bike lanes because you won't use them..... maybe i don't want my taxes going to schools since I don't have kids.  

 

Also, cyclists may not directly fund infrastructure, but the bike lanes typically have a net positive effect on adjacent businesses, increase property values, reduce pollution, and reduce the need for vast tracts of land dedicated to single occupancy vehicles. 

 

I want bike lanes but just don't want them poorly designed, and built under a false narrative.  The biggest elephant in the room that constantly gets deliberately ignored is biking from late October through February.  

 

The Province is providing the funding to Victoria for bike lanes though the Gas Tax.

 

Only a small subset of the community can use bike lanes for commuting.  If society wanted things differently, they would have planned accordingly over the past 30 years.  The CoV continues to block the type of development needed for everyone to live within biking distance.  

 

That's why the cycling coalition is the true definition of a special interest group.  It benefits a few while ignoring the realities of the many.

[GetLisaSomeHelps]

I may be wrong, but aren't gas taxes provincial and federal taxes (i guess other than the transit portion for the CRD and Metro Van)?  Local roads / bike lanes are paid for by the municipality, so gas taxes don't directly go to roads. 

 

People pay taxes to the government (all levels) in exchange for services and infrastructure; that's called being a society. Sure, you don't want your taxes going to bike lanes because you won't use them..... maybe i don't want my taxes going to schools since I don't have kids.  

 

Also, cyclists may not directly fund infrastructure, but the bike lanes typically have a net positive effect on adjacent businesses, increase property values, reduce pollution, and reduce the need for vast tracts of land dedicated to single occupancy vehicles. 

 

Let's just have a user fee for everything and ditch taxes all together. I'm sure no one will have a problem with that...

 

Oh what's that? People who don't have a disability are subsidizing those with? People without kids are subsidizing those with? People who don't get injured at work are subsidizing those who do? People who don't lose their job during COVID are subsidizing those who have? If you were to draw up a City from scratch you would most certainly have an active transportation network that can get people from one part of the region to their destination in any other part of the region without needing to share road space with cars for more than say, a few blocks.

[Mike K.]

The gas tax only represents a portion of bike infrastructure funding. But even so, the majority of cyclists also drive, so they’re already contributing. They are also contributing through property tax (directly and indirectly) as well as through income tax.

So yes, they do pay their share.

 

I've always felt this to be a little bit misleading.

 

"Also drive" could mean any number of things, and not necessarily that that the group all collectively actually drive. Like if they have a driver's license, they can "also [know how to] drive," but they might not own a vehicle, and may very rarely, if ever, actually drive.

 

The key metric here should be how many kilometers cyclists also drive, not that they have a license to drive, if we claim the majority of cyclists also drive.

[GetLisaSomeHelps]

Let's just have a user fee for everything and ditch taxes all together. I'm sure no one will have a problem with that...

 

Oh what's that? People who don't have a disability are subsidizing those with? People without kids are subsidizing those with? People who don't get injured at work are subsidizing those who do? People who don't lose their job during COVID are subsidizing those who have? If you were to draw up a City from scratch you would most certainly have an active transportation network that can get people from one part of the region to their destination in any other part of the region without needing to share road space with cars for more than say, a few blocks.

 

Adding on to this: I'm not a fan of the bike network as proposed. Ideal world I'd love to see bikes have a completely separate "road system" similar to many parts of Germany where bike paths are built into the sidewalk. Unfortunately space is an issue for our retrofit (at least here in Vic) so what would be the most economical/efficient system will not work here.

[Mike K.]

Plenty of space, but you'd have to remove grassy boulevards and public trees to make way for the bike path.

 

An average residential street in Victoria is between 15 and 20 meters wide from sidewalk edge to sidewalk edge. That's the width of a four-lane road with wide sidewalks. By comparison Hillside from sidewalk edge to sidewalk edge at Quadra is 21 meters wide, and it has a centre turn lane.

[Rex Waverly]

I want bike lanes but just don't want them poorly designed, and built under a false narrative.  The biggest elephant in the room that constantly gets deliberately ignored is biking from late October through February.  

 

 

 

What about the design is 'poor'?  Is it the type of facility, or is it the roads that they are placed on?  I'm honestly curious, what alternate type or placement would you have chosen that still meets the goal of the bike network (i.e. create a robust AAA bike network that gives cyclists safe routes to home, school, work, retail, etc)?  

 

Also, the 'elephant in the room' is not being ignored; bike lanes get designed for peak volumes because obviously.  That's why roads are built to handle peak hour / seasonal volumes, even though that means they're overbuilt for like 20 hours a day (or 24 hours a day during non-peak seasons, where applicable).

 

(Also we design schools / universities to accommodate the peak number of students / staff even though they're empty all summer. Mall parking lots are designed to accommodate Christmas numbers, even though 11 months of the year it's way too much parking.)

[GetLisaSomeHelps]

What about the design is 'poor'?  Is it the type of facility, or is it the roads that they are placed on?  I'm honestly curious, what alternate type or placement would you have chosen that still meets the goal of the bike network (i.e. create a robust AAA bike network that gives cyclists safe routes to home, school, work, retail, etc)?  

 

Also, the 'elephant in the room' is not being ignored; bike lanes get designed for peak volumes because obviously.  That's why roads are built to handle peak hour / seasonal volumes, even though that means they're overbuilt for like 20 hours a day (or 24 hours a day during non-peak seasons, where applicable).

 

(Also we design schools / universities to accommodate the peak number of students / staff even though they're empty all summer. Mall parking lots are designed to accommodate Christmas numbers, even though 11 months of the year it's way too much parking.)

 

"There are hardly any cars on Douglas St at 11pm on Thursday....what a waste of taxpayer money to have 4 lanes plus a bus lane in either direction!"

[LJ]

[Nparker]

"There are hardly any cars on Douglas St at 11 pm on Thursday....what a waste of taxpayer money to have 4 lanes plus a bus lane in either direction!"

How many bikes are in the shared bus/bike lanes on Douglas at this same time? If I had to guess, even at this time of day, I bet the cars outnumber the bikes 10-to-1. Make that a rainy/windy night in November and I bet the ratio is 20-to-1.