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The Victoria emergency (fire/ambulance) services thread


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#2061 Mike K.

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Posted Yesterday, 08:40 AM

So much trepidation...

Know it all.
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#2062 On the Level

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Posted Yesterday, 11:08 AM

Who said it would be simple?  and nobody, least of all this poster, says we should mimic every other amalgamation in Canada (all BC amalgamations were a smashing success btw).  The model the 13 municipalities are currently running on is a rats nest of bureaucracy, inefficient and nobody in their right mind would copy what goes on here and use it elsewhere.  Oh and while I'm at it, the CRD is not an elected body to boot! Ridiculous.  Point is this needs to be fixed, the Province must do it because as we've seen the elected officials are not capable or simple refuse to acknowledge - we have a problem.  Just wait for the next tax bills.

 

I am not saying it shouldn't happen, just that it won't be cheap.  Even the transition will be expensive.  There have been plenty of studies (like the ones I pointed to) trying to understand why it doesn't amount to cost savings like everyone expected.  Matsqui and Abbotsford worked well because Abbotsford was already supplying services to Matsqui, but that isn't the case here in the CRD.

 

I can see the CRD being amalgamated into 3 cities but not 1.   



#2063 On the Level

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Posted Yesterday, 11:18 AM

NYC population: 8.4 million

BC population: 5.1 million

CRD population:384,000

 

FDNY has a budget of $2 Billion.  If the CRD was to model a single FD using their model for our population, we would have a budget of ~$91 Million USD or ~121 Million CAN.  That includes Ambulance, but of course we could get some of that back by charging Victorians $1,500 + millage + Oxygen for an Ambulance trip like they do.



#2064 Nparker

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Posted Yesterday, 12:40 PM

...I can see the CRD being amalgamated into 3 cities but not 1.   

I think this makes the most sense, but probably still won't happen unless ordered by the province.



#2065 On the Level

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Posted Yesterday, 02:29 PM

I think this makes the most sense, but probably still won't happen unless ordered by the province.

 

I don't see the province moving towards Amalgamation.  Why would Horgan force his riding to be run by Victoria activists?



#2066 Nparker

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Posted Yesterday, 02:39 PM

I don't see the province moving towards Amalgamation...

I don't see this happening either, but it's the only way it ever will happen. None of existing fiefdoms have any desire to give up power, even if it were for the greater good.



#2067 VIResident

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Posted Yesterday, 03:56 PM

Mike, somewhere you mentioned you were trying to find out how many employees there are (region):

There are thousands - don't forget we have 13 municipalities AND the CRD.


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#2068 VIResident

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Posted Yesterday, 03:58 PM

I don't see this happening either, but it's the only way it ever will happen. None of existing fiefdoms have any desire to give up power, even if it were for the greater good.

 

Could not agree with you more.  What will happen however is the municipalities will become unaffordable, which will translate to less services and far lower service levels than those who can afford it expect.  It will break.  Taxes are coming down the pipe fast and hard.  Watch. 



#2069 On the Level

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Posted Yesterday, 05:48 PM

Could not agree with you more.  What will happen however is the municipalities will become unaffordable, which will translate to less services and far lower service levels than those who can afford it expect.  It will break.  Taxes are coming down the pipe fast and hard.  Watch. 

 

Can we please stop with the ideology that Amalgamation will save money.  We are sounding like the CoV council when it comes to money management.  There are a lot of good reasons to Amalgamate, one being that Saanich and the Westhore have a larger base of middle class that won't vote for the extreme left ideologs. Money is not one of the reasons.

 

 

The logic at the time was that, by reducing the total number of municipalities, local services could be delivered more efficiently and at a lower per-unit cost (thanks to the greater scale of service administration). It was also hoped amalgamation would reduce duplication of service provision or jurisdictional overlap between multiple layers of government.

And yet, the hoped-for efficiencies did not materialize. Several indepth analyses in the two decades that followed Ontario’s amalgamations—including work by the Fraser Institute—examined municipal revenue and spending patterns, to test whether forced municipal mergers delivered on the promises touted by Queen’s Park.
 
In most cases, the per-household tax burden increased, as did spending on certain services and—importantly—government staff remuneration. In many cases, municipal employee wages were harmonized upwards (to match the pre-amalgamation municipality with the highest-paid employees), in turn generating the opposite effect desired by the plan.
 
Reducing the number of elected officials (who undergo electoral scrutiny) simply pushes more decision-making to city staff who do not face the same incentives to balance the costs and benefits of their decisions. The larger the municipality, the greater the distance between local decisionmakers and citizens.

 

https://www.fraserin...-accountability

 

 

When the Harris PC government was elected in 1995, there were 850 municipalities in the province. Within five years, that number was nearly cut in half to 444, based on a premise that amalgamation would produce more efficient and less costly local governments. Taxpayers, it was argued, would benefit from lower costs and lower taxes. 

 

Specifically, 15 years after amalgamation, we found the exercise did not result in cost-savings or lower property taxes. Rather, we found significant increases in property taxes, compensation for municipal employees, and long-term debt in both amalgamated and unamalgamated communities, suggesting there was no tangible financial benefit from amalgamation.

 
In fact, many of the claims put forward by amalgamation advocates failed to materialize. In most of the municipalities we analyzed, the per-household municipal tax burden increased. 

 

https://www.fraserin...tion-experiment



#2070 Nparker

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Posted Yesterday, 05:56 PM

...There are a lot of good reasons to Amalgamate, one being that Saanich and the Westshore have a larger base of middle class that won't vote for the extreme left ideologues...

Agreed, but perhaps this is best discussed in the amalgamation thread.



#2071 On the Level

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Posted Yesterday, 06:08 PM

^ Agreed! So I don't stay too off topic...

 

 

The results show that the costs per household of fire services are minimized for municipalities with a population of about 20,000 residents. For police services, costs are minimized with a population of about 50,000 residents. Based on these results, implications are drawn for municipal amalgamation policy.

 
Specifically, fire services exhibited U-shaped per household costs, which were minimized at about 20,000 residents. The cost of a fire department was clearly affected by the number of calls received and average response time.
 
This general cost structure is inconsistent with the unqualified promise of cost savings typically advanced by municipal amalgamation proponents, at least for
these two services. Indeed, the data do not support a premise of unlimited capacity to realize municipal economies of scale.

 

Bigger is not cheaper.  Basically it's a curve from 20K going upward.  

 

https://munkschool.u...online_jan3.pdf


Edited by On the Level, Yesterday, 06:09 PM.


#2072 VIResident

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Posted Yesterday, 07:35 PM

Can we please stop with the ideology that Amalgamation will save money.  We are sounding like the CoV council when it comes to money management.  There are a lot of good reasons to Amalgamate, one being that Saanich and the Westhore have a larger base of middle class that won't vote for the extreme left ideologs. Money is not one of the reasons.

 

 

https://www.fraserin...-accountability

 

 

https://www.fraserin...tion-experiment

 

Insisting on referencing old studies about out-of-province amalgamations etc. etc. it is really very boring. 

 

My reference to taxes had nothing to do with amalgamation, or it 'saving' anyone a penny.  My reference was simply to point out the current system and the 1,000 of players in the very large rats nest of bureaucracy will drown in the ocean under the sheer weight of.....taxes.  


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#2073 On the Level

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Posted Yesterday, 07:46 PM

Insisting on referencing old studies about out-of-province amalgamations etc. etc. it is really very boring. 

 

My reference to taxes had nothing to do with amalgamation, or it 'saving' anyone a penny.  My reference was simply to point out the current system and the 1,000 of players in the very large rats nest of bureaucracy will drown in the ocean under the sheer weight of.....taxes.  

 

You say it won't save anyone a penny, then mention taxes?   Details and facts please..... 


Edited by On the Level, Yesterday, 07:47 PM.


 



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